7.09: Never Leave Me - Science Fiction Fantasy Chronicles: forums

obcooke · 27th November 2002, 01:37 AM

Buffy and friends hope to find out more about the evil they face by capturing Spike and Andrew.

They do find out more, but not the way they intended and certainly nothing they wanted to know.

Highlander II · 27th November 2002, 03:17 PM

1st - that title's kinda confusing -- does that mean that the not-Spike evil thing wants Spike to not leave? Or that Andrew wants Warren not to leave (and Andrew has lost more of his mind than Spike has of his - at least Spike realizes he's hallucinating) Or what? hrmmmmmm

2nd – Buffy believes in Spike?? Haruh?

if she says so.

3rd – Was that the Watcher's Council they blew up? B/c if so – they could have matched the building images better –

Okay – onto thoughts and such about the ep itself –

This was good – but, if Spike knew that he could break out of the ropes if he went vamp – uh, why didn't he have Buffy chain him up earlier?

Anyway – Buffy – Spike interaction – was nicely done. And why is she so shocked that he's being honest? When hasn't he been? (well, ok, yeah, he's lied, but when he's brutal, it's usually honest – it's when he's trying to get something and he's nice that they should worry that he's lying – haven't they gotten that yet?)

And now everyone wants to 'help' Spike except Anya? What does she have against him now that she didn't before? I'm confused on her standpoint – is she switching sides b/c Buffy tried to kill her? That doesn't make much sense, b/c even Xander's kind of on-board w/ the 'let's help Spike' bit, so, kinda lost there too –

Spike needs blood – Willow: You want me to kill Anya?

Hehe – great line – go Will! (not that I want Anya dead – it was just funny)

Of course, then she goes to the butcher and bumps into (no, literally) Andrew – who's got an exact replica of Spike's coat, only cleaner – what was that about? Aside from the 'freak out' shot at the beginning where they show the boots and black jeans and duster clomping along the sidewalk then pan up and eeeeek! it's Andrew! (of course, it's not Spike – he's cowering at Buffy's house – ok – never thought I'd put 'Spike' and 'cowering' in the same sentence – ever – but anyway…)

And how cool was her 'She-witch' speech? And then Andrew's – "Your hair isn't even black anymore."

The interrogation scenes were great! Andrew in one room w/ the 'good cop' / 'bad cop' thing going on, and Buffy and Spike almost having a 'heart to heart' – almost – then she darts out and 'not-Spike' is back and starts making Spike sing and act all 'weird-Spike' again – and he snapped that chair like a twig – and that was so cool – dragging Andrew through the wall! Awesome! (Loving the mini-bits of evil-Spike!)

And Xander waxing exposition about the 'trigger' (a horse? - Anya's got some moments) and the brainwashing - drawing on that pop-culture of his - so, they gonna figure a way to un-brainwash Spike? Or just leave him to the evil not-Spike?

Okay – the evil thing / not-Spike / not-Buffy tells Spike that he couldn't take care of 'him' – to which him is it referring? Andrew? Didn't think that was a problem – b/c the evil wanted Andrew for opening the hellmouth-y thing. Of course the evil not-Buffy also tells Spike that he looks better w/ his shirt off (than Andrew does) – well "to coin a popular Sunnydale phrase – duh!" (Spike – "In the Dark" – AtS) :naughty: Then it asks – 'Do you want to see a real vampire?' (or "Wanna see a real vampire?" – whichever, same thing) – and out comes this ugly thing w/ bad nails and long teeth. I saw the leather sleeves and thought it was gonna be the Master for a second – but this thing was uglier than the Master (Mark Metcalf is so cool! I wanna see him back – but I don't think he will be) – good cliffhanger here – (much better than the Angel one – blah that was dumb)

Buffy said she knew what they were facing – she said 'The First' – now, I can see where this could mean the 'First Evil' – but then the not-Buffy yanked a really ancient vampire out of the Earth – so, is the not-Buffy the 'First Evil' and the vampire is the 'First Vampire' (which would go a long way to explaining why the Hellmouth is where it is), or is the Vampire the 'Frist Evil'? Or what? Some speculation happening here ----

There was a lot in this episode – a lot of information, interaction – and that little chat that Buffy and Spike had – 'you like men who can hurt you,' and she says 'no, I don't hate like that—anymore' --- and Spike's trying to act all 'Big Bad' still – (and I really want him to be all 'Big Bad' b/c I like evil Spike better, but I have an odd feeling we won't get that, but – anyway ---) she tells him she believes in him – and the look on his face (and this is one of the reasons I love James Marsters) was indescribable – but, it does seem to further my theory (which I haven't posted yet, so I will now) that Spike's ultimate goal (in life / unlife) seems to be to acquire someone's friendship. (yeah, I really have a theory about this and I'll post the whole mini-essay a little later if anyone wants to see it) Spike wants someone to befriend him – someone he can go to w/ his problems and talk to when something goes wonky or wrong, and even when things are going great, and someone who will, in turn, come to him w/ his/her problems and happiness and everything – (and yeah, my theory starts w/ examples from William's life and goes forward) – it's one of those things that everyone wants – and maybe, just maybe, Buffy's beginning to realize that sometimes demons just need a friend too –

I posted on one of my mailing lists a whacky theory about how Buffy can defeat the 'Big Bad' – what if, all she has to do, is admit that she wants to be / or is Spike's friend – that's it – that's all this big evil needs to whither and die – the Slayer admitting that she's friends w/ a vampire – or something that was evil --- hey – said it was a whacky theory ---

Highlander II · 28th November 2002, 01:14 AM

nevermind my first point up there - I watched the ep again and understand the title now - it relates to last week -

However, um - didn't Spike know that going to and making a deal w/ a demon to get his soul was a bad idea??
Isn't that *always* a bad idea? deals w/ demons never turn out well --

And why doesn't Buffy suspect wonkiness? or, why didn't she say 'duh, go to a demon for your soul, get more than you bargained for' - isn't that the way she treated him before? or does she feel bad for being horrible to him, so she's being nice??

(sorry if I sound extra snarky - my fingers are freezing b/c this house is just dumb as far as heat goes - grrr (or should that be brrr) argh)

Dru · 28th November 2002, 02:12 AM

Ok I loved Willow pushing Andrew to the wall and her big "I'm she Witch who will do horrible things to you" speech and before that the Warrens "That's the worst attempted pig slaughtering I've ever seen"

And "Yeah. I'm Evil and I'm protected by forced you can't even begin to imagine little girl" LOL Andrew trying to be scary one of the funniest things in the whole ep!

And Anya and Xander playing Good cop Bad Cop with him? And Buffy walks in to find Anya sitting on him with her arm pulled back to knock him silly and Xander holding his face and Buffy goes "Everything ok?" "Oh yeah were great." "Ok" LOL

But I strangely love Big Bad Shape Shifting Demon Guy Spike more then Souly Spike. *sighs* Stupid Soul. But *perks up* If Buffy's right about the chip not working then all he needs to do is get rid of the soul then he can ge back to normal!

Shaun · 28th November 2002, 02:51 PM

Eh, not (too) bad, but not great either. Now I was looking forward to the watchers council going to war but, oh no, they had to give us a glimpse of a good and interesting story before destroying it; possibly. They buildings are totally different, so either they screwed up big or they're different buildings (I've uploaded a comparison of the buildings). I'm also going to now assume Giles is dead

, I've lost all hope of him surviving.

And what was that thing coming out of the hellmouth? I really don't want it to be a major player unless they make it look better and make it interesting.

The characters and their interactions were the best bit about the episode. "Do you want me to kill Anya?" :lol: aswell as Xander/Anya stuff with Andrew

. Though I am getting sick of all the Buffy/Spike stuff.

Highlander II · 28th November 2002, 03:40 PM

ok - spoiler about Giles:

ASH is contracted (or so I heard) for 10 eps - so unless he's coming back as a ghost - I don't think he's dead

re: the buildings - are we really supposed to think that those are both the Watchers' Council?? If so, either someone thinks we're blind, or it's supposed to be two different sides of the same building - which still doesn't make any sense - but hey - maybe it's a shape-shifting building? (ok - that's even stupider than us having to believe w/o explanation that they were supposed to be the same bldg) --

The thing coming out of the hellmouth was a 'real vampire' - well, according to the not-Buffy anyway

obcooke · 28th November 2002, 03:51 PM

[Highlander II: ok - spoiler about Giles:

[H2: ASH is contracted (or so I heard) for 10 eps - so unless he's coming back as a ghost - I don't think he's dead]

But remember, this Big Bad impersonates dead people, so....

[Highlander II: The thing coming out of the hellmouth was a 'real vampire' - well, according to the not-Buffy anyway]

Okay, it's my job to stamp our spoilers, but I don't think that this is one since it doesn't give away any plot developments...

The thing is being referred to as The UberVampire on the Internet.

And you know, I thought it was The Master at first too. Maybe the longer vampires exist the more they start to look all leathery, pale and bat-like??

Shaun · 28th November 2002, 04:09 PM

I'm not going to read the spoilers, I just prefer for it to be a surprise, even if I am right.
Regarding the two buildings, I'm just hoping that they're different buildings. But its hard, not knowing whether its a mistake or a part of the plot.

Maybe I just got my hopes up too high but I expected the 'thing' to be really scary and that vampire just didn't do it for me. I did notice a similarity with the Master too.
And just a few episodes ago, I was complaining about the lack of interesting vampires...

Hopefully the "Ubervamp" does become interesting and dangerous.

Highlander II · 29th November 2002, 03:54 PM

The thing about the 'real vampire' coming out of the hole in the ground isn't a spoiler - it's exactly what the not-Buffy (big bad, the thing that devours, whatever) said to Spike --

not-Buffy: "Hey, wanna see a real vampire?"
Spike: <not so happy look on his face>

Big real vampire comes out of hole in ground --

not a spoiler --

re: Giles

Yeah, that may be, but there's also Ripper - if they still plan to make it - and Ripper wouldn't make much sense taking place in the past - it sounds more like a 'post-Buffy' thing (to me anyway) --

More about Giles -- (not spoilery - just speculation based on his last scene in 'Sleeper')

The guy who was on the floor dying - told Giles "Gather them..."

Who is Giles supposed to 'gather'? And if he's supposed to gather someones or somethings - then it doesn't make a lot of sense for him to be dead - unless he can do gathering from the grave --- so, my guess, since that is a 'big' unanswered question - I don't think he's dead --- but - hey - I could be wrong -------

obcooke · 29th November 2002, 04:45 PM

[Highlander II: The thing about the 'real vampire' coming out of the hole in the ground isn't a spoiler]

Slight misunderstanding, I meant I didn't judge my giving away the name "UberVampire" as a spoiler even though it hasn't been mentioned in the show yet. Your comments were fine, I just used them as a lead-in to revealing the creature's name.

Highlander II · 30th November 2002, 07:34 PM

gotcha -- sometimes we're just so articulate, aren't we?

honestly - I don't think 'UberVamp' would necessarily be the Joss Whedon 'actual' name for the thing - that's kind of a 'fan assigned' or Scoobie gang name -- it'll probably have some wacked out name that means 'big pile of something' in latin or something --- some ancient sounding name ---

but - then again - this is Joss Whedon we're talking about here - he could come up w/ anything ----

obcooke · 30th November 2002, 08:09 PM

[Highlander II: I don't think 'UberVamp' would necessarily be the Joss Whedon 'actual' name for the thing - that's kind of a 'fan assigned' or Scoobie gang name...]

Perhaps, but remember that "Scoobies" was a fan name that Joss eventually adopted for infrequent use.

They have to call this thing something when they refer to it in the scripts and perhaps the title has been leaked to the Internet. I'm not certain of that, but I wouldn't rule it out.

Highlander II · 30th November 2002, 08:14 PM

Yeah - I know -

and for some reason - on Angel - there were a lot of Batman ref's the first season -- still don't get that - but anyway --

Same thing w/ Troika -- that was never mentioned either - Buffy always called 'em the 'evil trio' or something like that ----

guess we'll see ---

Highlander II · 2nd December 2002, 05:50 PM

[This is gonna be kinda long -- and there are only spoilers for previous episodes -- anything else is pure speculation on my part ------]

Okay - I went back and watched the previous eps - (1-8) - and found that the little speech from the end of "Lessons" is quite telling, and actually makes a lot more sense now (or, maybe I've over analyzed the damned thing - we'll see) --

Here's the little speech w/o any comment:

Spike: ... I had a speech. I learned it all. Oh God, she won't understand. She won't understand.

Warren: Of course she won't understand, Sparky. I'm beyond her understanding. She's a girl. Sugar and spice and everything useless unless you're baking. I'm more than that. I'm more than flesh… <morphs into>
Glory: …more than blood. I'm… you know, I honestly don't think there's a human word fabulous enough for me. Oh, my name will be on everyone's lips, assuming their lips haven't been torn off. But not just yet. That's all right though… <morphs into>
Adam: …I can be patient. Everything is well within parameters. She's exactly where I want her to be. And so are you, Number 17. You're right where you belong. <morphs into>
The Mayor: So, what'd you think? You'd get your soul back and everything'd be Jim Dandy? Soul's slipperier than a greased weasel. Why d'you think I sold mine? <evil cackle> Well, you probably thought that you'd be your own man and I respect that, but… <morphs into>
Drusilla: …you never will. You'll always be mine. You'll always be in the dark, with me. Singing our little songs. You like our little songs, don't you? You've always liked them. Right from the beginning. And that's where we're going… <morphs into>
The Master: …right back to the beginning. Not the BANG. Not the word. The true beginning. The next few months are going to be quite a ride. And I think we're all going to learn something about ourselves in the process. You'll learn you're a pathetic shmuck. If it hasn't sunk in already. Look at you, trying to do what's right. Just like her. You still don't get it. It's not about right. Not about wrong. <morphs into>
Buffy: It's about power.

And here's what I came up with:

Spike: … I had a speech. I learned it all. Oh God, she won't understand. She won't understand.

Warren: Of course she won't understand, Sparky. I'm beyond her understanding. She's a girl. Sugar and spice and everything useless unless you're baking. I'm more than that. I'm more than flesh… <morphs into>

*hint that it's not a corporeal, or Earth-bound being – which we already knew, but just more indication…

Glory: …more than blood. I'm… you know, I honestly don't think there's a human word fabulous enough for me. Oh, my name will be on everyone's lips, assuming their lips haven't been torn off. But not just yet. That's all right though… <morphs into>

*again – non-corporeal, perhaps hinting toward "The First" (which Buffy establishes in "Never Leave Me")…

Adam: …I can be patient. Everything is well within parameters. She's exactly where I want her to be. And so are you, Number 17. You're right where you belong. <morphs into>

*Does this mean that Spike should be on the Hellmouth? It's where he is when the morphy thing is talking to him, and it's where he is in "Never Leave Me" at the end – when they open the thing…

The Mayor: So, what'd you think? You'd get your soul back and everything'd be Jim Dandy? Soul's slipperier than a greased weasel. Why d'you think I sold mine? <evil cackle> Well, you probably thought that you'd be your own man and I respect that, but… <morphs into>

*Well, considering Spike got his soul from a demon – I'm thinking that probably wasn't the best move on Spike's part, but I'm not sure to what the Mayor-morph is referring…

Drusilla: …you never will. You'll always be mine. You'll always be in the dark, with me. Singing our little songs. You like our little songs, don't you? You've always liked them. Right from the beginning. And that's where we're going… <morphs into>

*These seems like almost a direct reference to "Sleeper" – w/ the song, not to mention an intentional use of Spike's words from "Dead Things" (You'll always be in the dark with me"); this is also why, I think, they used Dru instead of Angelus – b/c from Angelus the lines about the 'songs' would not come across the same – Dru's insane and used to sing all the time, she makes more sense looking back on this…

The Master: …right back to the beginning. Not the BANG. Not the word. The true beginning. The next few months are going to be quite a ride. And I think we're all going to learn something about ourselves in the process. You'll learn you're a pathetic shmuck. If it hasn't sunk in already. Look at you, trying to do what's right. Just like her. You still don't get it. It's not about right. Not about wrong. <morphs into>

*Okay – this one's kind of the kicker, but I have a question first – this thing says 'we're all going to learn something about ourselves,' then in "Never Leave Me" – it's chastising Spike for wanting to 'go out and learn something about himself' – I'm confused – were they supposed to learn or not?

*But – going 'back to the beginning' – not the 'bang' – so, not to creation of Earth (however it was done – don't snap on me about theories and such), not back to the 'word'? hmmm – not sure on that one – but the 'true beginning' – by who's definition? Aha! Perhaps therein lies the answer – who's definition of the beginning are we returning to?

*And of course – 'it's not about right… wrong' – I have a feeling this might be a reference to good and evil needing to stand together to defeat whatever this is? Maybe??

Buffy: It's about power.

*So, 'it's about power' – who's power? B/c I'm guessing it's not talking about Sunnydale Electric Co. Or, about power in general? Does this mean that Buffy and her gang need to merge their power with Angel and his gang to get enough to take out this thing? Or Buffy and Willow need to stand together to fend it off? Or Buffy and Spike? Or Willow and Spike? Or does Dawn now have the power and she's the one who can stop it? Or – does it go farther than that? B/c Giles was told to 'gather them' – so, does this mean that all the potential Slayers and the few Watchers who are left (if there are any, and I'm guessing that 'them' refers to slayers in training) should be brought together to the Hellmouth to stand alongside Buffy and her friends to take this thing down? Is that the power? The Power of the Slayers? Or is there something else altogether, and it really IS about Sunnydale Electric Co, and Buffy just needs to smack this thing w/ a power line?

obcooke · 3rd December 2002, 04:49 AM

Interesting thoughts. Of course, I can never let deep thoughts go by without dipping my toes in the shallows.

Besides I think from my different perspective I can shed a little light on the angles you missed. After all, every photographer trying to capture the scene, realistically, needs more than one light source.

---------------------

Warren:...I'm more than that. I'm more than flesh...

Good point, H2. A little bit of bragging as well, something we are used to from The First - overblown with his own importance.

---------------------

Glory: ...you know, I honestly don't think there's a human word fabulous enough for me...

{see above}

---------------------

Adam: ...Everything is well within parameters. She's exactly where I want her to be. And so are you...

[H2: *Does this mean that Spike should be on the Hellmouth?]

Spike doesn't seem to be able to get away from The Hellmouth ("Home, Sweet Home") for long. But, The First is a big believer in plans. He's mentioned them often, remember? In this case, I think The First means that all is going to parameters... I mean, plan. He needs Spike in Sunnydale and addled so he's vulnerable to head games.

---------------------

The Mayor: So, what'd you think? You'd get your soul back and everything'd be Jim Dandy? Soul's slipperier than a greased weasel...]

Spike saw his soul as the way to Buffy's heart or at least her respect. But everything is not Jim Dandy. Souls are slippery, they can't be pinned down - you can't predict which direction they will run. Take your pick - it a metaphor for "you don't always get what you bargained for" or what you went through Hell for.

---------------------

Drusilla: …you never will. You'll always be mine. You'll always be in the dark, with me. Singing our little songs...]

Well there may have been network issues with getting Angel, but you're right - Dru is better. But not because Dru is crazy - after all, Angelus is a homicidal lunatic.

Dru/The First thinks that Spike is still one of his dark minions. Dru's hold on Spike is a metaphor for The First's hold on Spike.

Also, it wouldn't be the same if Angel talked about Spike always being his and singing songs together.

---------------------

The Master: ...Not the BANG. Not the word. The true beginning...

[H2: who's definition of the beginning are we returning to?]

Neither the Scientific beginning nor the Religious beginning - not the Big Bang nor The Word of God (God said, "Let there be light."). We're probably talking about Joss' demonic history beginning. Remember...

Giles: The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood...

Anya: You’ve never seen a demon...[edited]...All the demons that walk the earth are tainted, are human hybrids like vampires. The Ascension means that a human becomes pure demon. They’re different...[edited]...for one thing, they’re bigger.

There once was a time, perhaps when The First began, when REAL demons walked the Earth. Could the plan be to return to that time and restore dominion over the Earth to the demons via The Hellmouth? Just a guess.

---------------------

The Master: ...I think we're all going to learn something about ourselves in the process...

[H2: I'm confused – were they supposed to learn or not?]

Plans imply control. The First wants to control what happens. It only intends for people to learn what it wants them to. Learning stuff from others is not part of the plan.

---------------------

Buffy: It's about power.

[H2: *So, 'it's about power' – who's power?]

Surely, you jest, H2. You'll never get your Doctorate in Buffyology that way. You're teasing us aren't you?

What has Buffy always been about? Buffy's life is a metaphor for empowerment of the individual. We have the power to overcome the demons of our lives. The only thing that Buffy can't beat is real human death (Joyce, Tara).

The demons represent the "horrors" that each of us must survive as a part of living. "The hardest thing in this life is to live in it." The demons represent the things that make life hard. But we have the power to defeat them. And that power increases when we combine with others in our lives (Buffy & the Scoobies, Willow & Tara).

The only way we can lose is if we allow the bad things to steal our power, our fortitude, our will.

27th November 2002, 01:37 AM	#1 (permalink)
obcooke OB-Wan Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,357	7.09: Never Leave Me Buffy and friends hope to find out more about the evil they face by capturing Spike and Andrew. They do find out more, but not the way they intended and certainly nothing they wanted to know.

28th November 2002, 02:51 PM	#5 (permalink)
Shaun R.I.P. Ashes Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 1,798	Eh, not (too) bad, but not great either. Now I was looking forward to the watchers council going to war but, oh no, they had to give us a glimpse of a good and interesting story before destroying it; possibly. They buildings are totally different, so either they screwed up big or they're different buildings (I've uploaded a comparison of the buildings). I'm also going to now assume Giles is dead , I've lost all hope of him surviving. And what was that thing coming out of the hellmouth? I really don't want it to be a major player unless they make it look better and make it interesting. The characters and their interactions were the best bit about the episode. "Do you want me to kill Anya?" :lol: aswell as Xander/Anya stuff with Andrew . Though I am getting sick of all the Buffy/Spike stuff. Attached Images

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27th November 2002, 03:17 PM	#2 (permalink)
Highlander II There can be only one!! Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 9,408	1st - that title's kinda confusing -- does that mean that the not-Spike evil thing wants Spike to not leave? Or that Andrew wants Warren not to leave (and Andrew has lost more of his mind than Spike has of his - at least Spike realizes he's hallucinating) Or what? hrmmmmmm 2nd – Buffy believes in Spike?? Haruh? if she says so. 3rd – Was that the Watcher's Council they blew up? B/c if so – they could have matched the building images better – Okay – onto thoughts and such about the ep itself – This was good – but, if Spike knew that he could break out of the ropes if he went vamp – uh, why didn't he have Buffy chain him up earlier? Anyway – Buffy – Spike interaction – was nicely done. And why is she so shocked that he's being honest? When hasn't he been? (well, ok, yeah, he's lied, but when he's brutal, it's usually honest – it's when he's trying to get something and he's nice that they should worry that he's lying – haven't they gotten that yet?) And now everyone wants to 'help' Spike except Anya? What does she have against him now that she didn't before? I'm confused on her standpoint – is she switching sides b/c Buffy tried to kill her? That doesn't make much sense, b/c even Xander's kind of on-board w/ the 'let's help Spike' bit, so, kinda lost there too – Spike needs blood – Willow: You want me to kill Anya? Hehe – great line – go Will! (not that I want Anya dead – it was just funny) Of course, then she goes to the butcher and bumps into (no, literally) Andrew – who's got an exact replica of Spike's coat, only cleaner – what was that about? Aside from the 'freak out' shot at the beginning where they show the boots and black jeans and duster clomping along the sidewalk then pan up and eeeeek! it's Andrew! (of course, it's not Spike – he's cowering at Buffy's house – ok – never thought I'd put 'Spike' and 'cowering' in the same sentence – ever – but anyway…) And how cool was her 'She-witch' speech? And then Andrew's – "Your hair isn't even black anymore." The interrogation scenes were great! Andrew in one room w/ the 'good cop' / 'bad cop' thing going on, and Buffy and Spike almost having a 'heart to heart' – almost – then she darts out and 'not-Spike' is back and starts making Spike sing and act all 'weird-Spike' again – and he snapped that chair like a twig – and that was so cool – dragging Andrew through the wall! Awesome! (Loving the mini-bits of evil-Spike!) And Xander waxing exposition about the 'trigger' (a horse? - Anya's got some moments) and the brainwashing - drawing on that pop-culture of his - so, they gonna figure a way to un-brainwash Spike? Or just leave him to the evil not-Spike? Okay – the evil thing / not-Spike / not-Buffy tells Spike that he couldn't take care of 'him' – to which him is it referring? Andrew? Didn't think that was a problem – b/c the evil wanted Andrew for opening the hellmouth-y thing. Of course the evil not-Buffy also tells Spike that he looks better w/ his shirt off (than Andrew does) – well "to coin a popular Sunnydale phrase – duh!" (Spike – "In the Dark" – AtS) :naughty: Then it asks – 'Do you want to see a real vampire?' (or "Wanna see a real vampire?" – whichever, same thing) – and out comes this ugly thing w/ bad nails and long teeth. I saw the leather sleeves and thought it was gonna be the Master for a second – but this thing was uglier than the Master (Mark Metcalf is so cool! I wanna see him back – but I don't think he will be) – good cliffhanger here – (much better than the Angel one – blah that was dumb) Buffy said she knew what they were facing – she said 'The First' – now, I can see where this could mean the 'First Evil' – but then the not-Buffy yanked a really ancient vampire out of the Earth – so, is the not-Buffy the 'First Evil' and the vampire is the 'First Vampire' (which would go a long way to explaining why the Hellmouth is where it is), or is the Vampire the 'Frist Evil'? Or what? Some speculation happening here ---- There was a lot in this episode – a lot of information, interaction – and that little chat that Buffy and Spike had – 'you like men who can hurt you,' and she says 'no, I don't hate like that—anymore' --- and Spike's trying to act all 'Big Bad' still – (and I really want him to be all 'Big Bad' b/c I like evil Spike better, but I have an odd feeling we won't get that, but – anyway ---) she tells him she believes in him – and the look on his face (and this is one of the reasons I love James Marsters) was indescribable – but, it does seem to further my theory (which I haven't posted yet, so I will now) that Spike's ultimate goal (in life / unlife) seems to be to acquire someone's friendship. (yeah, I really have a theory about this and I'll post the whole mini-essay a little later if anyone wants to see it) Spike wants someone to befriend him – someone he can go to w/ his problems and talk to when something goes wonky or wrong, and even when things are going great, and someone who will, in turn, come to him w/ his/her problems and happiness and everything – (and yeah, my theory starts w/ examples from William's life and goes forward) – it's one of those things that everyone wants – and maybe, just maybe, Buffy's beginning to realize that sometimes demons just need a friend too – I posted on one of my mailing lists a whacky theory about how Buffy can defeat the 'Big Bad' – what if, all she has to do, is admit that she wants to be / or is Spike's friend – that's it – that's all this big evil needs to whither and die – the Slayer admitting that she's friends w/ a vampire – or something that was evil --- hey – said it was a whacky theory ---

28th November 2002, 01:14 AM	#3 (permalink)
Highlander II There can be only one!! Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 9,408	nevermind my first point up there - I watched the ep again and understand the title now - it relates to last week - However, um - didn't Spike know that going to and making a deal w/ a demon to get his soul was a bad idea?? Isn't that always a bad idea? deals w/ demons never turn out well -- And why doesn't Buffy suspect wonkiness? or, why didn't she say 'duh, go to a demon for your soul, get more than you bargained for' - isn't that the way she treated him before? or does she feel bad for being horrible to him, so she's being nice?? (sorry if I sound extra snarky - my fingers are freezing b/c this house is just dumb as far as heat goes - grrr (or should that be brrr) argh)

28th November 2002, 02:12 AM	#4 (permalink)
Dru I'm a princess Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Pa Posts: 910	Ok I loved Willow pushing Andrew to the wall and her big "I'm she Witch who will do horrible things to you" speech and before that the Warrens "That's the worst attempted pig slaughtering I've ever seen" And "Yeah. I'm Evil and I'm protected by forced you can't even begin to imagine little girl" LOL Andrew trying to be scary one of the funniest things in the whole ep! And Anya and Xander playing Good cop Bad Cop with him? And Buffy walks in to find Anya sitting on him with her arm pulled back to knock him silly and Xander holding his face and Buffy goes "Everything ok?" "Oh yeah were great." "Ok" LOL But I strangely love Big Bad Shape Shifting Demon Guy Spike more then Souly Spike. sighs Stupid Soul. But perks up If Buffy's right about the chip not working then all he needs to do is get rid of the soul then he can ge back to normal!

28th November 2002, 03:40 PM	#6 (permalink)
Highlander II There can be only one!! Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 9,408	ok - spoiler about Giles: ASH is contracted (or so I heard) for 10 eps - so unless he's coming back as a ghost - I don't think he's dead re: the buildings - are we really supposed to think that those are both the Watchers' Council?? If so, either someone thinks we're blind, or it's supposed to be two different sides of the same building - which still doesn't make any sense - but hey - maybe it's a shape-shifting building? (ok - that's even stupider than us having to believe w/o explanation that they were supposed to be the same bldg) -- The thing coming out of the hellmouth was a 'real vampire' - well, according to the not-Buffy anyway

28th November 2002, 03:51 PM	#7 (permalink)
obcooke OB-Wan Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,357	[Highlander II: ok - spoiler about Giles: [H2: ASH is contracted (or so I heard) for 10 eps - so unless he's coming back as a ghost - I don't think he's dead] But remember, this Big Bad impersonates dead people, so.... [Highlander II: The thing coming out of the hellmouth was a 'real vampire' - well, according to the not-Buffy anyway] Okay, it's my job to stamp our spoilers, but I don't think that this is one since it doesn't give away any plot developments... The thing is being referred to as The UberVampire on the Internet. And you know, I thought it was The Master at first too. Maybe the longer vampires exist the more they start to look all leathery, pale and bat-like??

28th November 2002, 04:09 PM	#8 (permalink)
Shaun R.I.P. Ashes Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 1,798	I'm not going to read the spoilers, I just prefer for it to be a surprise, even if I am right. Regarding the two buildings, I'm just hoping that they're different buildings. But its hard, not knowing whether its a mistake or a part of the plot. Maybe I just got my hopes up too high but I expected the 'thing' to be really scary and that vampire just didn't do it for me. I did notice a similarity with the Master too. And just a few episodes ago, I was complaining about the lack of interesting vampires... Hopefully the "Ubervamp" does become interesting and dangerous.

29th November 2002, 03:54 PM	#9 (permalink)
Highlander II There can be only one!! Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 9,408	The thing about the 'real vampire' coming out of the hole in the ground isn't a spoiler - it's exactly what the not-Buffy (big bad, the thing that devours, whatever) said to Spike -- not-Buffy: "Hey, wanna see a real vampire?" Spike: <not so happy look on his face> Big real vampire comes out of hole in ground -- not a spoiler -- re: Giles Yeah, that may be, but there's also Ripper - if they still plan to make it - and Ripper wouldn't make much sense taking place in the past - it sounds more like a 'post-Buffy' thing (to me anyway) -- More about Giles -- (not spoilery - just speculation based on his last scene in 'Sleeper') The guy who was on the floor dying - told Giles "Gather them..." Who is Giles supposed to 'gather'? And if he's supposed to gather someones or somethings - then it doesn't make a lot of sense for him to be dead - unless he can do gathering from the grave --- so, my guess, since that is a 'big' unanswered question - I don't think he's dead --- but - hey - I could be wrong -------

29th November 2002, 04:45 PM	#10 (permalink)
obcooke OB-Wan Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,357	[Highlander II: The thing about the 'real vampire' coming out of the hole in the ground isn't a spoiler] Slight misunderstanding, I meant I didn't judge my giving away the name "UberVampire" as a spoiler even though it hasn't been mentioned in the show yet. Your comments were fine, I just used them as a lead-in to revealing the creature's name.

30th November 2002, 07:34 PM	#11 (permalink)
Highlander II There can be only one!! Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 9,408	gotcha -- sometimes we're just so articulate, aren't we? honestly - I don't think 'UberVamp' would necessarily be the Joss Whedon 'actual' name for the thing - that's kind of a 'fan assigned' or Scoobie gang name -- it'll probably have some wacked out name that means 'big pile of something' in latin or something --- some ancient sounding name --- but - then again - this is Joss Whedon we're talking about here - he could come up w/ anything ----

30th November 2002, 08:09 PM	#12 (permalink)
obcooke OB-Wan Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,357	[Highlander II: I don't think 'UberVamp' would necessarily be the Joss Whedon 'actual' name for the thing - that's kind of a 'fan assigned' or Scoobie gang name...] Perhaps, but remember that "Scoobies" was a fan name that Joss eventually adopted for infrequent use. They have to call this thing something when they refer to it in the scripts and perhaps the title has been leaked to the Internet. I'm not certain of that, but I wouldn't rule it out.

30th November 2002, 08:14 PM	#13 (permalink)
Highlander II There can be only one!! Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 9,408	Yeah - I know - and for some reason - on Angel - there were a lot of Batman ref's the first season -- still don't get that - but anyway -- Same thing w/ Troika -- that was never mentioned either - Buffy always called 'em the 'evil trio' or something like that ---- guess we'll see ---

2nd December 2002, 05:50 PM	#14 (permalink)
Highlander II There can be only one!! Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 9,408	[This is gonna be kinda long -- and there are only spoilers for previous episodes -- anything else is pure speculation on my part ------] Okay - I went back and watched the previous eps - (1-8) - and found that the little speech from the end of "Lessons" is quite telling, and actually makes a lot more sense now (or, maybe I've over analyzed the damned thing - we'll see) -- Here's the little speech w/o any comment: Spike: ... I had a speech. I learned it all. Oh God, she won't understand. She won't understand. Warren: Of course she won't understand, Sparky. I'm beyond her understanding. She's a girl. Sugar and spice and everything useless unless you're baking. I'm more than that. I'm more than flesh… <morphs into> Glory: …more than blood. I'm… you know, I honestly don't think there's a human word fabulous enough for me. Oh, my name will be on everyone's lips, assuming their lips haven't been torn off. But not just yet. That's all right though… <morphs into> Adam: …I can be patient. Everything is well within parameters. She's exactly where I want her to be. And so are you, Number 17. You're right where you belong. <morphs into> The Mayor: So, what'd you think? You'd get your soul back and everything'd be Jim Dandy? Soul's slipperier than a greased weasel. Why d'you think I sold mine? <evil cackle> Well, you probably thought that you'd be your own man and I respect that, but… <morphs into> Drusilla: …you never will. You'll always be mine. You'll always be in the dark, with me. Singing our little songs. You like our little songs, don't you? You've always liked them. Right from the beginning. And that's where we're going… <morphs into> The Master: …right back to the beginning. Not the BANG. Not the word. The true beginning. The next few months are going to be quite a ride. And I think we're all going to learn something about ourselves in the process. You'll learn you're a pathetic shmuck. If it hasn't sunk in already. Look at you, trying to do what's right. Just like her. You still don't get it. It's not about right. Not about wrong. <morphs into> Buffy: It's about power. And here's what I came up with: Spike: … I had a speech. I learned it all. Oh God, she won't understand. She won't understand. Warren: Of course she won't understand, Sparky. I'm beyond her understanding. She's a girl. Sugar and spice and everything useless unless you're baking. I'm more than that. I'm more than flesh… <morphs into> hint that it's not a corporeal, or Earth-bound being – which we already knew, but just more indication… Glory:* …more than blood. I'm… you know, I honestly don't think there's a human word fabulous enough for me. Oh, my name will be on everyone's lips, assuming their lips haven't been torn off. But not just yet. That's all right though… <morphs into> again – non-corporeal, perhaps hinting toward "The First" (which Buffy establishes in "Never Leave Me")… Adam:* …I can be patient. Everything is well within parameters. She's exactly where I want her to be. And so are you, Number 17. You're right where you belong. <morphs into> Does this mean that Spike should be on the Hellmouth? It's where he is when the morphy thing is talking to him, and it's where he is in "Never Leave Me" at the end – when they open the thing… The Mayor:* So, what'd you think? You'd get your soul back and everything'd be Jim Dandy? Soul's slipperier than a greased weasel. Why d'you think I sold mine? <evil cackle> Well, you probably thought that you'd be your own man and I respect that, but… <morphs into> Well, considering Spike got his soul from a demon – I'm thinking that probably wasn't the best move on Spike's part, but I'm not sure to what the Mayor-morph is referring… Drusilla:* …you never will. You'll always be mine. You'll always be in the dark, with me. Singing our little songs. You like our little songs, don't you? You've always liked them. Right from the beginning. And that's where we're going… <morphs into> These seems like almost a direct reference to "Sleeper" – w/ the song, not to mention an intentional use of Spike's words from "Dead Things" (You'll always be in the dark with me"); this is also why, I think, they used Dru instead of Angelus – b/c from Angelus the lines about the 'songs' would not come across the same – Dru's insane and used to sing all the time, she makes more sense looking back on this… The Master:* …right back to the beginning. Not the BANG. Not the word. The true beginning. The next few months are going to be quite a ride. And I think we're all going to learn something about ourselves in the process. You'll learn you're a pathetic shmuck. If it hasn't sunk in already. Look at you, trying to do what's right. Just like her. You still don't get it. It's not about right. Not about wrong. <morphs into> Okay – this one's kind of the kicker, but I have a question first – this thing says 'we're all going to learn something about ourselves,' then in "Never Leave Me" – it's chastising Spike for wanting to 'go out and learn something about himself' – I'm confused – were they supposed to learn or not? But – going 'back to the beginning' – not the 'bang' – so, not to creation of Earth (however it was done – don't snap on me about theories and such), not back to the 'word'? hmmm – not sure on that one – but the 'true beginning' – by who's definition? Aha! Perhaps therein lies the answer – who's definition of the beginning are we returning to? And of course – 'it's not about right… wrong' – I have a feeling this might be a reference to good and evil needing to stand together to defeat whatever this is? Maybe?? Buffy:* It's about power. *So, 'it's about power' – who's power? B/c I'm guessing it's not talking about Sunnydale Electric Co. Or, about power in general? Does this mean that Buffy and her gang need to merge their power with Angel and his gang to get enough to take out this thing? Or Buffy and Willow need to stand together to fend it off? Or Buffy and Spike? Or Willow and Spike? Or does Dawn now have the power and she's the one who can stop it? Or – does it go farther than that? B/c Giles was told to 'gather them' – so, does this mean that all the potential Slayers and the few Watchers who are left (if there are any, and I'm guessing that 'them' refers to slayers in training) should be brought together to the Hellmouth to stand alongside Buffy and her friends to take this thing down? Is that the power? The Power of the Slayers? Or is there something else altogether, and it really IS about Sunnydale Electric Co, and Buffy just needs to smack this thing w/ a power line?

3rd December 2002, 04:49 AM	#15 (permalink)
obcooke OB-Wan Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,357	Interesting thoughts. Of course, I can never let deep thoughts go by without dipping my toes in the shallows. Besides I think from my different perspective I can shed a little light on the angles you missed. After all, every photographer trying to capture the scene, realistically, needs more than one light source. --------------------- Warren:...I'm more than that. I'm more than flesh... Good point, H2. A little bit of bragging as well, something we are used to from The First - overblown with his own importance. --------------------- Glory: ...you know, I honestly don't think there's a human word fabulous enough for me... {see above} --------------------- Adam: ...Everything is well within parameters. She's exactly where I want her to be. And so are you... [H2: Does this mean that Spike should be on the Hellmouth?] Spike doesn't seem to be able to get away from The Hellmouth ("Home, Sweet Home") for long. But, The First is a big believer in plans. He's mentioned them often, remember? In this case, I think The First means that all is going to parameters... I mean, plan. He needs Spike in Sunnydale and addled so he's vulnerable to head games. --------------------- The Mayor:* So, what'd you think? You'd get your soul back and everything'd be Jim Dandy? Soul's slipperier than a greased weasel...] Spike saw his soul as the way to Buffy's heart or at least her respect. But everything is not Jim Dandy. Souls are slippery, they can't be pinned down - you can't predict which direction they will run. Take your pick - it a metaphor for "you don't always get what you bargained for" or what you went through Hell for. --------------------- Drusilla: …you never will. You'll always be mine. You'll always be in the dark, with me. Singing our little songs...] Well there may have been network issues with getting Angel, but you're right - Dru is better. But not because Dru is crazy - after all, Angelus is a homicidal lunatic. Dru/The First thinks that Spike is still one of his dark minions. Dru's hold on Spike is a metaphor for The First's hold on Spike. Also, it wouldn't be the same if Angel talked about Spike always being his and singing songs together. --------------------- The Master: ...Not the BANG. Not the word. The true beginning... [H2: who's definition of the beginning are we returning to?] Neither the Scientific beginning nor the Religious beginning - not the Big Bang nor The Word of God (God said, "Let there be light."). We're probably talking about Joss' demonic history beginning. Remember... Giles: The books tell the last demon to leave this reality* fed off a human, mixed their blood...* Anya: You’ve never seen a demon...[edited]...All the demons that walk the earth are tainted, are human hybrids like vampires. The Ascension means that a human becomes pure demon. They’re different...[edited]...for one thing, they’re bigger. There once was a time, perhaps when The First began, when REAL demons walked the Earth. Could the plan be to return to that time and restore dominion over the Earth to the demons via The Hellmouth? Just a guess. --------------------- The Master: ...I think we're all going to learn something about ourselves in the process... [H2: I'm confused – were they supposed to learn or not?] Plans imply control. The First wants to control what happens. It only intends for people to learn what it wants them to. Learning stuff from others is not part of the plan. --------------------- Buffy: It's about power. [H2: *So, 'it's about power' – who's power?] Surely, you jest, H2. You'll never get your Doctorate in Buffyology that way. You're teasing us aren't you? What has Buffy always been about? Buffy's life is a metaphor for empowerment of the individual. We have the power to overcome the demons of our lives. The only thing that Buffy can't beat is real human death (Joyce, Tara). The demons represent the "horrors" that each of us must survive as a part of living. "The hardest thing in this life is to live in it." The demons represent the things that make life hard. But we have the power to defeat them. And that power increases when we combine with others in our lives (Buffy & the Scoobies, Willow & Tara). The only way we can lose is if we allow the bad things to steal our power, our fortitude, our will.