7.09: Never Leave Me

[Highlander II]

Adam: ...Everything is well within parameters. She's exactly where I want her to be. And so are you...

[H2: *Does this mean that Spike should be on the Hellmouth?]

Spike doesn't seem to be able to get away from The Hellmouth ("Home, Sweet Home") for long. But, The First is a big believer in plans. He's mentioned them often, remember? In this case, I think The First means that all is going to parameters... I mean, plan. He needs Spike in Sunnydale and addled so he's vulnerable to head games.

Oh – I meant directly over it – b/c that room where we first see Spike is the same room that they drag him to and bleed him in – to open that big hole in the ground –
But –no, he's kinda drawn back to Sunnydale – 3 times – "School Hard" / "Lover's Walk" / "Harsh Light of Day" - and he comes back – "Lessons" (not sure it was a 'draw' b/c he intended to return anyway that time)
And I get the other part too – the First needs Spike crazy so that he's (Spike) not interfering w/ the plans – however, for whatever reason, either when the First lets him 'be free' or Spike fights back hard enough to repress the 'invisible people' – Spike manages to 'upset' the plans of the first – unless Spike was supposed to get Buffy to get Xander to get Anya to reverse that spell so she would have to 'pay' to D'Hoffryn for not doing her job – thus leading to the killing of Hallie and Anya's revocation of powers – which seems really thought out and subject to numerous unknown variables, but it could still be part of the 'plan'

The Mayor: So, what'd you think? You'd get your soul back and everything'd be Jim Dandy? Soul's slipperier than a greased weasel...

Spike saw his soul as the way to Buffy's heart or at least her respect. But everything is not Jim Dandy. Souls are slippery, they can't be pinned down - you can't predict which direction they will run. Take your pick - it a metaphor for "you don't always get what you bargained for" or what you went through Hell for.

Yeah, I know why Spike got his soul – and I'm just wondering why Spike sought out a demon to get his soul back – demons are (generally) not-so-honest and though Spike went through all the trials and such and he was getting what he wanted – who's to say that the demon he sought wasn't working for The First and didn't piggy-back something in there w/ the soul?

Drusilla: …you never will. You'll always be mine. You'll always be in the dark, with me. Singing our little songs...

Well there may have been network issues with getting Angel, but you're right - Dru is better. But not because Dru is crazy - after all, Angelus is a homicidal lunatic.

Dru/The First thinks that Spike is still one of his dark minions. Dru's hold on Spike is a metaphor for The First's hold on Spike.

Also, it wouldn't be the same if Angel talked about Spike always being his and singing songs together.

Yeah – I love Angelus and think he would have been cool to see again, and I get the network issues, but if Angelus was there talking about singing songs – unless he specifically mentioned sitting in a brothel crooning over ale – you would have thought he was loopy –
And think about this – really – think back – when you watched this and heard Dru talking about singing songs – how much attention did you pay? B/c they played it up like Spike was just hearing voices. Tho, of course, we know that nothing in Buffy happens by accident (well, except those missed reflections of vampires) so all of the dialogue would have been important – but b/c of the set-up of the story arc, you don't realize it until you look back – (great thing about taping the eps for later viewing)

The Master: ...Not the BANG. Not the word. The true beginning...

[H2: who's definition of the beginning are we returning to?]

Neither the Scientific beginning nor the Religious beginning - not the Big Bang nor The Word of God (God said, "Let there be light."). We're probably talking about Joss' demonic history beginning. Remember...

Giles: The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood...

Anya: You’ve never seen a demon...[edited]...All the demons that walk the earth are tainted, are human hybrids like vampires. The Ascension means that a human becomes pure demon. They’re different...[edited]...for one thing, they’re bigger.

There once was a time, perhaps when The First began, when REAL demons walked the Earth. Could the plan be to return to that time and restore dominion over the Earth to the demons via The Hellmouth? Just a guess.

Forgot about that line from Giles – about the last demon feeding off a human – I know I heard it, just didn't think about it as I was going through this –
Tho – that helps a bit w/ the 'Hey, Spike, wanna see a real vampire?' line – explains a bit (perhaps) why it and the Master look different – yeah – the Master was old – but maybe he was part of that original line ---

The Master: ...I think we're all going to learn something about ourselves in the process...

[H2: I'm confused – were they supposed to learn or not?]

Plans imply control. The First wants to control what happens. It only intends for people to learn what it wants them to. Learning stuff from others is not part of the plan.

The First needs to learn that 'the best laid plans…' – you – things don't always turn out as you plan them – (hmm – didn't you say that's what the Mayor-morph said to Spike?) Also, not everything can be controlled – as the First will learn – Spike's 'love' (yeah, in quotes, b/c I'm not sure I believe that he feels 100% love for Buffy – it's that part of me that still wants Spike to be a little bit evil) is stronger than the First's control – hey – there we go – that's it ---- the 'love is stronger than <insert whatever is appropriate here>' bit – hey – it's no more far-fetched than some of the things that we've seen / come up with --

Buffy: It's about power.

[H2: *So, 'it's about power' – who's power?]

Surely, you jest, H2. You'll never get your Doctorate in Buffyology that way. You're teasing us aren't you?

What has Buffy always been about? Buffy's life is a metaphor for empowerment of the individual. We have the power to overcome the demons of our lives. The only thing that Buffy can't beat is real human death (Joyce, Tara).

The demons represent the "horrors" that each of us must survive as a part of living. "The hardest thing in this life is to live in it." The demons represent the things that make life hard. But we have the power to defeat them. And that power increases when we combine with others in our lives (Buffy & the Scoobies, Willow & Tara).

The only way we can lose is if we allow the bad things to steal our power, our fortitude, our will.

See – this would be so much easier for me if I remembered all of these things – b/c I distinctly remember Joss mentioning that the demons they create for the show (or, at least the ones in the beginning) were supposed to represent teenage hardships and such – however, that didn't pop in m'head when I was typing this up yesterday – work tends to suck all the good stuff out of your brain…

And if you notice in my post – I asked if Buffy and the Scoobies need to combine their power – I didn't say 'strength' – but 'power' – kind of like at the end of S4 – but not necessarily magically – And the way you've phrased what you have – defeating the First could almost be as easy as the Scoobies accepting Spike into the gang – friendship is power – Buffy survives b/c of her friends – so letting Spike in might be the 'straw that broke the camel's back' so to speak – (really –just an off-the-wall theory). I don't think it would be that easy, but it could be – and would almost be just like Joss for that to be the answer – but, I have a feeling it'll either be way more complicated than that, or the world will end – one of the two – the 'simple solution' doesn’t usually seem to be Joss' MO.

This is fun…. I love these little discussions – even though it might make us look a little obsessive – we do get some good quality philosophical empowerment from this – we look at things differently – and not just things on the show – I'm guessing after some of these discussions, we look at 'life' differently too – reading others' opinions / thoughts is always good – and usually fun -

[Dru]

Neither the Scientific beginning nor the Religious beginning - not the Big Bang nor The Word of God (God said, "Let there be light."). We're probably talking about Joss' demonic history beginning. Remember...

Giles: The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood...

Anya: You’ve never seen a demon...[edited]...All the demons that walk the earth are tainted, are human hybrids like vampires. The Ascension means that a human becomes pure demon. They’re different...[edited]...for one thing, they’re bigger.

There once was a time, perhaps when The First began, when REAL demons walked the Earth. Could the plan be to return to that time and restore dominion over the Earth to the demons via The Hellmouth? Just a guess.

Know whats weird? This is the plot of this E-Book I read that goes with the Buffy X-Box game. It'd be strange if it turned out to be what's happening on the show too.

[obcooke]

I didn't really feel like starting a new thread for this, so it seemed like the best place to post it was here.

For us in the US, the next new Buffy episode (7.10 - Bring On the Night] will be on Dec. 17th.

another week to wait - Eergh! Aargh!

[Highlander II]

hey - at least it's only a week - and not a month -- optimism, Ob!


but yes - I'd heard that - was quite excited too - just b/c we get new Buffy - I have no idea what it's about - don't wanna know either ---- lalalala -- likin' bein' spoiler-free ----

[obcooke]

[Highlander II: -- likin' bein' spoiler-free]

Then I hope you didn't watch this week's previews for the next episode because it gives away a lot of stuff.

BTW -

[Highlander II: are we really supposed to think that those are both the Watchers' Council?? If so, either someone thinks we're blind, or it's supposed to be two different sides of the same building - which still doesn't make any sense..]

According to Drew Goddard in a chat session -

"The Watcher’s Council blew up... Sorry for any confusion."

[Shaun]

Originally posted by obcooke
[Highlander II: -- likin' bein' spoiler-free]

Then I hope you didn't watch the this week's previews for the next episode because it gives away a lot of stuff.

I've stopped watching all previews after the Australian one for "The Gift" last year. It showed Buffy jumping through some sort of portal with sad music playing . Luckily they don't advertise it very much.

I've read what he said about the Watchers council too. Its a real shame.

[Highlander II]

Originally posted by obcooke
[Highlander II: -- likin' bein' spoiler-free]

Then I hope you didn't watch this week's previews for the next episode because it gives away a lot of stuff.

Actually - didn't watch BtVS yesterday - was busy on compy - checking mail and the like - there's no TV where the compy is - so, NO SPOILERS!! WOOHOO!!

Originally posted by obcooke
BTW -

[Highlander II: are we really supposed to think that those are both the Watchers' Council?? If so, either someone thinks we're blind, or it's supposed to be two different sides of the same building - which still doesn't make any sense..]

According to Drew Goddard in a chat session -

"The Watcher’s Council blew up... Sorry for any confusion."

Ah - so they caught that, huh? tsk tsk - Drew and Joss - match up your images better next time ------

[little smaug]

I'm not really upset about the Watchers Council - Quentin Travers was so mean!

I thought this episode was kinda average, tho i did like Xander and Anya playing good cop/ bad cop.

One thing that kinda bugged me:

Buffy: You took a bite out of Andrew.
Spike: Who?
Buffy: Tucker's brother.
Spike: Oh.

1 - the first couple of times, this was funny. Now it's just annoying.
2 - this makes no sense. Spike left in season 2 and came back season 4. Tucker appeared season 3. How does Spike know who Tucker is? At least he's seen Andrew, even if he didn't know his name.

[Highlander II]

Well - just b/c Spike wasn't around when Tucker sent the dogs to attack the prom - doesn't mean he didn't know about it -- I kinda think Spike takes a twisted pride in knowing what some of the other baddies do in Sunny-D - so he can 'look better' as a baddie - (he is anyway, but still)

Or - it's another of those 'oops, we forgot to check backstory' -



And I wanna say there was something else that was bugging me about this, but I don't remember what it was just now --

[little smaug]

I guess that coulda happened. Still seems pretty far-fetched that anyone would tell him, and that he would remember it.:evil:

[Highlander II]

See, Spike's not stupid. And he's highly underestimated, most of the time. He remembers a lot more than most ppl think - he just chooses to not remember certain things, or he lets ppl believe he doesn't remember them. He really, I would guess, has all these little nuggets of information tucked neatly into folders in the filing cabinet of his brain, just WAITING for that perfect moment to spout them off and either tick someone off, or impress the hell out of them, depending on the situation...

I can see Spike remembering that Tucker sent the wild dogs, and my guess would be, not that someone told him, but that he overheard some demon or vampire or something talking about it in a bar. I don't think gossip is stagnant in the demon realm - and remember, S3 was before Spike became an outcast in the Vampire community - he was a bad ass and was rather well-known for it - he killed 2 Slayers - that's gotta put him in some vampire book of records somewhere, or something. Maybe he has a plaque or a trophy? (now I'm just being silly) But, the point is, he's known - to an extent - so, demons might have told him things --and if they had ANYTHING to do w/ the Slayer - he'd remember...

[little smaug]

Ok, ok, you've convinced me!

[Highlander II]

I can argue anything about Spike --

What do you want me to do next?

[little smaug]

How about an impression? :lol:

[obcooke]

Well...

While it can be argued reasonably that things a character shouldn't know were learned outside of our vision, it is usually considered "cheating" unless the oversight is explained.

I have no problem with that, as long as it is recognized for what it is.

I think that the reason for that bit of dialogue goes back to little smaug's original point. That Andrew's identity is a running joke that's getting a little long in the tooth.

The idea is that Andrew has no identity of his own... he's Tucker's brother... he's the third nerd... he's nobody important.

The goal seems to be to keep reminding us that Andrew is only defined by whom he has been associated with. Even though he knows enough about The First and is potentially dangerous enough to be kept in custody, he really has no achievements of his own worth mentioning.

Perhaps the writers keep telling us that because they intend to change that this season?