7.08: Sleeper - Page 2 - Science Fiction Fantasy Chronicles: forums

markpud · 7th March 2003, 01:39 PM

Hey, another good episode, BtVS seems to be picking up nicely for the final season.

Have to admit that when Spike caught Anya in his trousers (if you get my meaning

) it was just the perfect response from her, wanting sex!! Only Anya could have gotten away with it, even if she wasn't exactly convincing..

Interesting to note that Spike's chip is still working when he knocks out Xander - or is it? Maybe it's just me, but i've been suspecting that he's been faking it recently... But then again why would he fake the pain after he'd already knocked Xander out - unless he wasn't sure that Xander was really out cold and wanted to make sure his illusion was maintained.

Or it could be that the BB is able to supress the chip while Spike is under it's influence??

And Giles at the end

I'm hoping they haven't killed him! He's survived a good few whackings in the past, so here's hoping... It'll be good to have him back in Sunnydale which is what it seems to be leading to (assuming he survives!)

VAMPette · 8th March 2003, 02:03 PM

good ep, but a bit confusing - liked the reappearance of evil Spike or Big Bad being Spike or whatever it was and controlling Spike to kill again, well anything that brings about two Spikes gotta be good. Plus scene with Anya - v.funny - loved her really unconvincing act then being really offended when he said no thanks. I thought William was really coming out there - I mean since when has Spike used phrases like ' It's quite fetching actually'. And then also the interaction between him and Buffy, which kind of touched on Buffy's feelings for Spike but never quite explored them - typically tantalising us as usual. Loved Spike's line about it still being all about Buffy.

Couple of things about the ep -

what was the significance of the song - is this anything to do with Dru or have I completely missed the point?

Buffy's double standards - when Anya was killing people, Buffy didn't consider did she need help - nope her solution was to grab the nearest pointy thing and go hell for leather after Anya. But oh yes, when it's spike different story altogether. And I don't buy the 'the hardest thing in this world is to live in it' yeah, yeah, yeah - she just can't bring herself to do it. I mean I don't want spike staked, but she needn't blether on about her having to make the decisions and crossing lines either, cos she's still as subjective as everybody else.

The thing about Spike tasting Buffy's blood and then his memory comes back - could that be that cos of his past hunting and killing Slayers - it's a powerful sense of recognition bringing back what he is and what he's done, including the 10 girls he killed.

Oh and Giles -

hope he's okay...I'd say we might need him come the end of the season/world/ "from beneath it devours" extravaganza...

Tabitha · 8th March 2003, 02:44 PM

"Giles can't be dead, Giles can't be dead, Giles can't be dead"

If I keep repeating this, will it come true?

Still, it certainly doesn't look good for Ripper - surely if the BBC tv show "Ripper" is ever to come about - and Joss says he is still interested AFAIK - then he just plain can't be dead.

I am also very confused about the whole chip thing - to be honest, I have seen the next two eps and I still don't really understand it.

This episode really was Spike-tastic wasn't it?
Anya was pretty funny - although I saw the shock cut of Spike grabbing her arm coming from a mile off, mind you, sometimes the predictable way is the best way to go!

I get the whole "Stake Spike already" thing - I agree that Buffy is beginning to get a bit repetitive, and I am amazed he hasn't come a lot closer to getting staked recently - especially after what he did to her last season.
I find it interesting compared to her big stand-off with Anya a few weeks ago. Xander's argument then was that Buffy was too keen to kill Anya, and not prepared to give her more of a chance. Buffy brought up her relationship with Angel as an example of making that kind of difficult choice, but I wonder if perhaps a comparison with Spike in this instance is a closer analogy. She seems to definitely be giving him the benefit of the doubt that she never really gave to Anya.

Arc_Angel · 9th March 2003, 10:01 AM

I loved this ep, oh it was sad at the end, had me in tears

markpud · 10th March 2003, 01:44 PM

I think there has to be some significance in Spike tasting Buffy's blood in this episode - the first time he's drunk from here as far as I can recall? Of course he has already said that the only think better than killing a slayer is....

Highlander II · 10th March 2003, 03:59 PM

yeah - this was the first time, at least on screen, that he has tasted Buffy - and I think it's probably the first time ever, b/c I can't see Buffy letting him bite her - she's said she doesn't trust him enough to love him, so hard to trust him enough to let him bite her --

So, evidently something about Buffy's blood kicked him in the butt and made him see what he had done - like the two forces collided in his head - the BB and the 'big good' (Buffy) - and sparked the memories and sent him reeling back to 'crazy Spike' - or something (lost my train of thought) ---

markpud · 12th March 2003, 02:52 PM

Mmm, there seem to be three states of Spike at thie point..

1)Bad Spike - under the influence of the BB, he is able to kill and feed without pain or remorse, and with his memory of the events removed afterwards.

2)Coherant Spike - this seems to be his most normal state, when he was talking about his soul with Buffy in the bedroom, and when he was turning down Anya's advances etc

3)Crazy Spike - again influenced from the BB, this was his dominant state for the opening of S7, but is now increasingly less dominant, and seems to be triggered by specific events, such as his recalling of the killings he'd commited etc.

markpud · 12th March 2003, 02:56 PM

Another thought I had - when Spike sees himself (as represented by the BB) this must be the first time he's actually been able to see what he looks like for a 100 or so years, right. I'm surprised that even in his mental state he didn't pop a quip about how good he was looking or something

Highlander II · 12th March 2003, 03:56 PM

LOL!!

but - remember - he was kinda crazy in the head - and seeing yourself talking to yourself - that could be kinda - off-putting, or something -- definitely enough to make you more crazy, I'd guess.

Lucid Spike would have made comments about his appearance, if Lucid Spike had ever seen Not-Spike (the BB); but I think only Crazy Spike ever saw Not-Spike - so, he wouldn't have been thinking clearly - just 'following orders'-ish; listening to the ramblings and such --

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7th March 2003, 01:39 PM	#16 (permalink)
markpud Super-Mod to the gods Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: with Buffy, in Manchester, England... Posts: 4,732	Hey, another good episode, BtVS seems to be picking up nicely for the final season. Have to admit that when Spike caught Anya in his trousers (if you get my meaning ) it was just the perfect response from her, wanting sex!! Only Anya could have gotten away with it, even if she wasn't exactly convincing.. Interesting to note that Spike's chip is still working when he knocks out Xander - or is it? Maybe it's just me, but i've been suspecting that he's been faking it recently... But then again why would he fake the pain after he'd already knocked Xander out - unless he wasn't sure that Xander was really out cold and wanted to make sure his illusion was maintained. Or it could be that the BB is able to supress the chip while Spike is under it's influence?? And Giles at the end I'm hoping they haven't killed him! He's survived a good few whackings in the past, so here's hoping... It'll be good to have him back in Sunnydale which is what it seems to be leading to (assuming he survives!)

8th March 2003, 02:03 PM	#17 (permalink)
VAMPette To the Angel- Mobile! Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 419	good ep, but a bit confusing - liked the reappearance of evil Spike or Big Bad being Spike or whatever it was and controlling Spike to kill again, well anything that brings about two Spikes gotta be good. Plus scene with Anya - v.funny - loved her really unconvincing act then being really offended when he said no thanks. I thought William was really coming out there - I mean since when has Spike used phrases like ' It's quite fetching actually'. And then also the interaction between him and Buffy, which kind of touched on Buffy's feelings for Spike but never quite explored them - typically tantalising us as usual. Loved Spike's line about it still being all about Buffy. Couple of things about the ep - what was the significance of the song - is this anything to do with Dru or have I completely missed the point? Buffy's double standards - when Anya was killing people, Buffy didn't consider did she need help - nope her solution was to grab the nearest pointy thing and go hell for leather after Anya. But oh yes, when it's spike different story altogether. And I don't buy the 'the hardest thing in this world is to live in it' yeah, yeah, yeah - she just can't bring herself to do it. I mean I don't want spike staked, but she needn't blether on about her having to make the decisions and crossing lines either, cos she's still as subjective as everybody else. The thing about Spike tasting Buffy's blood and then his memory comes back - could that be that cos of his past hunting and killing Slayers - it's a powerful sense of recognition bringing back what he is and what he's done, including the 10 girls he killed. Oh and Giles - hope he's okay...I'd say we might need him come the end of the season/world/ "from beneath it devours" extravaganza...

8th March 2003, 02:44 PM	#18 (permalink)
Tabitha Save Angel! Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 3,638	"Giles can't be dead, Giles can't be dead, Giles can't be dead" If I keep repeating this, will it come true? Still, it certainly doesn't look good for Ripper - surely if the BBC tv show "Ripper" is ever to come about - and Joss says he is still interested AFAIK - then he just plain can't be dead. I am also very confused about the whole chip thing - to be honest, I have seen the next two eps and I still don't really understand it. This episode really was Spike-tastic wasn't it? Anya was pretty funny - although I saw the shock cut of Spike grabbing her arm coming from a mile off, mind you, sometimes the predictable way is the best way to go! I get the whole "Stake Spike already" thing - I agree that Buffy is beginning to get a bit repetitive, and I am amazed he hasn't come a lot closer to getting staked recently - especially after what he did to her last season. I find it interesting compared to her big stand-off with Anya a few weeks ago. Xander's argument then was that Buffy was too keen to kill Anya, and not prepared to give her more of a chance. Buffy brought up her relationship with Angel as an example of making that kind of difficult choice, but I wonder if perhaps a comparison with Spike in this instance is a closer analogy. She seems to definitely be giving him the benefit of the doubt that she never really gave to Anya.

9th March 2003, 10:01 AM	#19 (permalink)
Arc_Angel Mr. Flibble is very cross Join Date: May 2001 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 2,873	I loved this ep, oh it was sad at the end, had me in tears

10th March 2003, 01:44 PM	#20 (permalink)
markpud Super-Mod to the gods Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: with Buffy, in Manchester, England... Posts: 4,732	I think there has to be some significance in Spike tasting Buffy's blood in this episode - the first time he's drunk from here as far as I can recall? Of course he has already said that the only think better than killing a slayer is....

10th March 2003, 03:59 PM	#21 (permalink)
Highlander II There can be only one!! Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 9,446	yeah - this was the first time, at least on screen, that he has tasted Buffy - and I think it's probably the first time ever, b/c I can't see Buffy letting him bite her - she's said she doesn't trust him enough to love him, so hard to trust him enough to let him bite her -- So, evidently something about Buffy's blood kicked him in the butt and made him see what he had done - like the two forces collided in his head - the BB and the 'big good' (Buffy) - and sparked the memories and sent him reeling back to 'crazy Spike' - or something (lost my train of thought) ---

12th March 2003, 02:52 PM	#22 (permalink)
markpud Super-Mod to the gods Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: with Buffy, in Manchester, England... Posts: 4,732	Mmm, there seem to be three states of Spike at thie point.. 1)Bad Spike - under the influence of the BB, he is able to kill and feed without pain or remorse, and with his memory of the events removed afterwards. 2)Coherant Spike - this seems to be his most normal state, when he was talking about his soul with Buffy in the bedroom, and when he was turning down Anya's advances etc 3)Crazy Spike - again influenced from the BB, this was his dominant state for the opening of S7, but is now increasingly less dominant, and seems to be triggered by specific events, such as his recalling of the killings he'd commited etc.

12th March 2003, 02:56 PM	#23 (permalink)
markpud Super-Mod to the gods Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: with Buffy, in Manchester, England... Posts: 4,732	Another thought I had - when Spike sees himself (as represented by the BB) this must be the first time he's actually been able to see what he looks like for a 100 or so years, right. I'm surprised that even in his mental state he didn't pop a quip about how good he was looking or something

12th March 2003, 03:56 PM	#24 (permalink)
Highlander II There can be only one!! Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 9,446	LOL!! but - remember - he was kinda crazy in the head - and seeing yourself talking to yourself - that could be kinda - off-putting, or something -- definitely enough to make you more crazy, I'd guess. Lucid Spike would have made comments about his appearance, if Lucid Spike had ever seen Not-Spike (the BB); but I think only Crazy Spike ever saw Not-Spike - so, he wouldn't have been thinking clearly - just 'following orders'-ish; listening to the ramblings and such --