They always know the address!!! - Science Fiction Fantasy Chronicles: forums

digi_rage1 · 23rd August 2002, 10:48 AM

Someone may have already asked this...

When SG1 gate to a new world, on returning to earth they always seem to know the exact glyphs to use, even though they would be completely different to the Earth gate. How is this possible. For example in Children of the Gods, Daniel quickly works out which glyphs need to be used, this would take ages to do, and would probably need to be done by a computer. Please Explain!!

Rowan · 23rd August 2002, 11:17 AM

The first six glyphs for a particular planet are consistant. it's the 7th that is the unique one. Perhaps there's a rapid identification method for determining that one.

rowan

PTeppic · 23rd August 2002, 09:10 PM

Since there are only 38 chevrons on the DHD, and 6 are already used in the destination address, the odds are significantly reduced, even if they want to guess. Add to that if they find a brand new glyph (e.g. Gamekeeper's planet) it gets more likely too.

digi_rage1 · 25th August 2002, 07:00 PM

Rowan you are actually wrong. The first six glyphs are most certainly not constant. This is true because the glyphs apart from the unique seventh symbol, are constellation based. A different view point in space would give a different constellation, and therefore when gating back to earth, from two different planets, would have two completely different addresses.

PTeppic · 25th August 2002, 07:45 PM

Yes and no. In theory, yes, but, in practice it appears to be no.

In practice, and this is probably more to do with budgets for props than the writers thinking of the actual science (#), the off-world gates and DHDs still seem to be highly similar to the Earth ones, with only a very small handful of non-Earth-gate constellations visible. Also, from every planet we have seen Earth dialled from, the co-ordinates are the same.

In terms of canon explanation, we can suggest that a "standard" symbol is used throughout the gate network to represent the constellations used for "navigation". This removes the need for gate-travellers to re-calculate each address by determining which symbols represent what constellations depending on the planet they are on. These standard symbols happen to be shown by the visual representation from 20th century Earth - spooky huh? They won't represent Earth dozens of millenia ago, nor from most of the planets in the network today (or ever!).

A production over-sight, really.... or shows we have now reached the "right time", and is a highly complex, frighteningly long-planned and as-yet un-revealed plot that will presumably be revealed soon, and probably to the people of Earth by the Ancients. Or is this the plot for the Atlantis spin-off?

(#) There is a separate issue over what is a constellation. I would think it likely that some/many/most of what we consider homogenous constellations are spread so far apart along our line of sight that from "sideways on" they are totally separate, or form several new "constellations" in their own right..... The chevrons would therefore more likely be marking specific locations, perhaps near notable stars, rather than a "constellation" since, as your post highlights, the view changes everything.

Rowan · 26th August 2002, 01:58 AM

I will argue: since the first 6 gylphs are taken as positions from the galactic core, they remain constant. The intersection of an X, Y and Z axis shown in the 'center of a box' as it were, will always be the same. It becomes the 'galactic coordinate'. It is the 'starting point' of the straight line that is the variable.

Sorry... I see it as basic astrogation.

IMHO - YMMV.

Rowan

PTeppic · 26th August 2002, 06:35 AM

Ah, a discussion...

I don't believe a "fixed point" model for the chevrons is used.

It would work insofar as it would mean that due to universal expansion the chevrons for any one gate address would have to be updated (as per Sam/Daniels revelation in "COTG"). But, it would mean that the glyphs do not correspond to anything specific, i.e. not a star or planet, but a point in space whether anything is there or not. This system also falls down badly for gates towards the outer edges of the galaxy. As those planets travel outwards the possible points that can be used for navigation will reduce, since they are fixed from the centre. In sufficient time, all the gates in the network will be unusable.

I believe a better model is one whereby each chevron represents a point in space, probably a major star, which is moving the outwards as with all other stars. Due to this expansion, the six points for navigation are not moving uniformly relative to the destination. Therefore for a destination the address will need to be changed after a sufficient gap - hence the re-calculation Carter starts performing and having answers chucked out a couple per month.

digi_rage1 · 26th August 2002, 02:55 PM

I agree PTeppic.

I also agree that one of the major aspects is that production costs cannot allow every gate and DHD on each planet to have different symbols.

However if you consider as you said that each glyph and therefore constellation has a centre point, it would be impossible to have a set address for each stargate. Every Stargate would have different symbols, as quoted by the Air Force in the original Stargate movie.

And if you think about it, it does make sense. If you take Orions belt for example. It is made of stars that are on completely different galactic planes, the only reason we see it, the way it is, is because of our view point. So another planet would
see it completely different, and therefore would need different glyphs.

PTeppic · 26th August 2002, 06:23 PM

I think we are agreeing about what WOULD happen looking at points in space from widely differing viewpoints... :blush:

But, if used for Stargate navigation, would that make the system unusable, if every trip you had to re-calculate a potentially large proportion of the chevrons, before dialling home. [Not to mention expensive for anyone filming this.

:evil:]

Having a fixed "symbolic" representation for each "constellation" would remove this problem, and mean that, for example, SG-1 only have to learn a single dial-home address no matter where they go. The Ancients would have only a single problem then - deciding what to put on these fixed glyphs. And oddly enough used 20th century Earth as the viewpoint... :eek7:

digi_rage1 · 26th August 2002, 09:46 PM

How come the symbols are completely different on the Abydos stargate?

PTeppic · 26th August 2002, 10:56 PM

I'll have to check, but I don't think they are in SG-1, only in the film... they have a different SGC gate in the series from that in the film, and I believe the "mobile" gate is different too.

[Just add it to the list of film/series discontinuities...

]

shu_hunter · 13th September 2002, 10:00 PM

Also, in the movie, Abydos is supposedly in another galaxy. Logically, all the glyphs should be different according to the planet or point of view of space, but it's easier in TV to just have a generic glyph system.

~Shu Hunter
:upto: Stargate fan{atic}

PTeppic · 14th September 2002, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shu_hunter
Also, in the movie, Abydos is supposedly in another galaxy.

Ah yes "the Kalium galaxy". As in "that's right Jackson - it's on the other side of the known universe". Only a subtle difference from only travelling within our own galaxy without booster power cells... continuity eh?

It would be interesting to know at what point they realised this conflict - right at the start (and they were happy to let it go as one of those things) or only when they came to do "Fifth Race".

Fifth · 22nd August 2004, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shu_hunter
Also, in the movie, Abydos is supposedly in another galaxy. Logically, all the glyphs should be different according to the planet or point of view of space, but it's easier in TV to just have a generic glyph system.

~Shu Hunter
:upto: Stargate fan{atic}

Actually that was a script error. They made a critical computer error. The tracking system itself supposedly miscalculated the distance. So, yeah. Just ignore that. The SGC was an amature then, and is much more experienced in Stargate Physics today.

PTeppic · 22nd August 2004, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fifth
Actually that was a script error.

Easy to claim... what are the details?

23rd August 2002, 10:48 AM	#1 (permalink)
digi_rage1 Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 31	They always know the address!!! Someone may have already asked this... When SG1 gate to a new world, on returning to earth they always seem to know the exact glyphs to use, even though they would be completely different to the Earth gate. How is this possible. For example in Children of the Gods, Daniel quickly works out which glyphs need to be used, this would take ages to do, and would probably need to be done by a computer. Please Explain!!

23rd August 2002, 11:17 AM	#2 (permalink)
Rowan Registered User Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In the wilds of Puget Sound. Near Seth and Cascade, WA. Posts: 2,480	glyphs The first six glyphs for a particular planet are consistant. it's the 7th that is the unique one. Perhaps there's a rapid identification method for determining that one. rowan

26th August 2002, 01:58 AM	#6 (permalink)
Rowan Registered User Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In the wilds of Puget Sound. Near Seth and Cascade, WA. Posts: 2,480	positions I will argue: since the first 6 gylphs are taken as positions from the galactic core, they remain constant. The intersection of an X, Y and Z axis shown in the 'center of a box' as it were, will always be the same. It becomes the 'galactic coordinate'. It is the 'starting point' of the straight line that is the variable. Sorry... I see it as basic astrogation. IMHO - YMMV. Rowan

23rd August 2002, 09:10 PM	#3 (permalink)
PTeppic Reetou Diplomatic Corp Join Date: May 2001 Location: North-west UK Posts: 3,081	Since there are only 38 chevrons on the DHD, and 6 are already used in the destination address, the odds are significantly reduced, even if they want to guess. Add to that if they find a brand new glyph (e.g. Gamekeeper's planet) it gets more likely too.

25th August 2002, 07:00 PM	#4 (permalink)
digi_rage1 Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 31	Rowan you are actually wrong. The first six glyphs are most certainly not constant. This is true because the glyphs apart from the unique seventh symbol, are constellation based. A different view point in space would give a different constellation, and therefore when gating back to earth, from two different planets, would have two completely different addresses.

25th August 2002, 07:45 PM	#5 (permalink)
PTeppic Reetou Diplomatic Corp Join Date: May 2001 Location: North-west UK Posts: 3,081	Yes and no. In theory, yes, but, in practice it appears to be no. In practice, and this is probably more to do with budgets for props than the writers thinking of the actual science (#), the off-world gates and DHDs still seem to be highly similar to the Earth ones, with only a very small handful of non-Earth-gate constellations visible. Also, from every planet we have seen Earth dialled from, the co-ordinates are the same. In terms of canon explanation, we can suggest that a "standard" symbol is used throughout the gate network to represent the constellations used for "navigation". This removes the need for gate-travellers to re-calculate each address by determining which symbols represent what constellations depending on the planet they are on. These standard symbols happen to be shown by the visual representation from 20th century Earth - spooky huh? They won't represent Earth dozens of millenia ago, nor from most of the planets in the network today (or ever!). A production over-sight, really.... or shows we have now reached the "right time", and is a highly complex, frighteningly long-planned and as-yet un-revealed plot that will presumably be revealed soon, and probably to the people of Earth by the Ancients. Or is this the plot for the Atlantis spin-off? (#) There is a separate issue over what is a constellation. I would think it likely that some/many/most of what we consider homogenous constellations are spread so far apart along our line of sight that from "sideways on" they are totally separate, or form several new "constellations" in their own right..... The chevrons would therefore more likely be marking specific locations, perhaps near notable stars, rather than a "constellation" since, as your post highlights, the view changes everything.

26th August 2002, 06:35 AM	#7 (permalink)
PTeppic Reetou Diplomatic Corp Join Date: May 2001 Location: North-west UK Posts: 3,081	Ah, a discussion... I don't believe a "fixed point" model for the chevrons is used. It would work insofar as it would mean that due to universal expansion the chevrons for any one gate address would have to be updated (as per Sam/Daniels revelation in "COTG"). But, it would mean that the glyphs do not correspond to anything specific, i.e. not a star or planet, but a point in space whether anything is there or not. This system also falls down badly for gates towards the outer edges of the galaxy. As those planets travel outwards the possible points that can be used for navigation will reduce, since they are fixed from the centre. In sufficient time, all the gates in the network will be unusable. I believe a better model is one whereby each chevron represents a point in space, probably a major star, which is moving the outwards as with all other stars. Due to this expansion, the six points for navigation are not moving uniformly relative to the destination. Therefore for a destination the address will need to be changed after a sufficient gap - hence the re-calculation Carter starts performing and having answers chucked out a couple per month.

26th August 2002, 02:55 PM	#8 (permalink)
digi_rage1 Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 31	I agree PTeppic. I also agree that one of the major aspects is that production costs cannot allow every gate and DHD on each planet to have different symbols. However if you consider as you said that each glyph and therefore constellation has a centre point, it would be impossible to have a set address for each stargate. Every Stargate would have different symbols, as quoted by the Air Force in the original Stargate movie. And if you think about it, it does make sense. If you take Orions belt for example. It is made of stars that are on completely different galactic planes, the only reason we see it, the way it is, is because of our view point. So another planet would see it completely different, and therefore would need different glyphs.

26th August 2002, 06:23 PM	#9 (permalink)
PTeppic Reetou Diplomatic Corp Join Date: May 2001 Location: North-west UK Posts: 3,081	I think we are agreeing about what WOULD happen looking at points in space from widely differing viewpoints... :blush: But, if used for Stargate navigation, would that make the system unusable, if every trip you had to re-calculate a potentially large proportion of the chevrons, before dialling home. [Not to mention expensive for anyone filming this. :evil:] Having a fixed "symbolic" representation for each "constellation" would remove this problem, and mean that, for example, SG-1 only have to learn a single dial-home address no matter where they go. The Ancients would have only a single problem then - deciding what to put on these fixed glyphs. And oddly enough used 20th century Earth as the viewpoint... :eek7:

26th August 2002, 09:46 PM	#10 (permalink)
digi_rage1 Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 31	How come the symbols are completely different on the Abydos stargate?

26th August 2002, 10:56 PM	#11 (permalink)
PTeppic Reetou Diplomatic Corp Join Date: May 2001 Location: North-west UK Posts: 3,081	I'll have to check, but I don't think they are in SG-1, only in the film... they have a different SGC gate in the series from that in the film, and I believe the "mobile" gate is different too. [Just add it to the list of film/series discontinuities... ]

13th September 2002, 10:00 PM	#12 (permalink)
shu_hunter Stargate fan[atic] Join Date: May 2001 Location: Quebec, Canada Posts: 165	Also, in the movie, Abydos is supposedly in another galaxy. Logically, all the glyphs should be different according to the planet or point of view of space, but it's easier in TV to just have a generic glyph system. ~Shu Hunter :upto: Stargate fan{atic}