Gandalf - more than a Wizard

[knivesout]

I recently came across an opnion that Gandalf hardly does anything magical - so what is the fuss about him anyway?

My own take on this is that Gandalf is much more than the Head Mage of the forces of Light - he is in fact their General, more so than Aragorn even. I believe that wizardry, in Tolkien's conception, was much more than the learning of sorcerous arts - it also meant mastery of all manner of mundane lore, and a variety of skills and experience in areas outside the working of magic itself. This is why there seem to be so few wizards in Middle Earth, and why Gandalf does not often take recourse in sorcery - it is only one in his entire range of powers.

What do you think?

[The Master™]

Gandalf and other members of Ainur are long lived... Gandalf is (apparently) nearly 4000 years old...

Personally, I believe that Gandalf is a student of life on Middle-Earth - he has studied the history of Man, Elf and others... He does not need to show the extent of his magical abilities because they can be subtle (talking with animals) or extreme (blocking the Balrog)...

But knowledge is the true power, and his knowledge is extensive indeed, as he was said to have travelled Middle-Earth for more than 1500 years!!!

[Sirathiel]

I agree that Gandalf is not your typical wizard. In fact, that's just a word used to describe him while he is really much more than that.

He is one of the Maiar (sp?), the helpers of the Valar. That's not directly mentioned in LotR, but indirectly. When he returns from his fight with the Balrog he says something like: "In my youth I was Olorin,..." That name in turn is mentioned at the beginning (more or less) of the Silmarillion.

In fact all those called 'wizard' in LotR are Maiar, including Sauron (if I remember correctly). They were each chosen by a Valar to watch out for Melkor's activities in Middle Earth (except Sauron, who just went with Melkor, was redeemed and returned to Melkor again...). Sorry, but I don't remember who chose Gandalf and who Saruman... But I think it was Mandos and Aule.

So, you're right, they're much more than the magic/sorcery wielding wizards one encounters in other works of fantasy.

[I, Brian]

No one's mentioned the Istari...

I was always given over to the impression that they were pretty much inclined towards non-involvement - they were present as guardians, not overlords, so they encouraged the other races to figure out what they could, only stepping in when the races were outmatched - such as with regards to the return of the One Ring. However, that in itself might not explain Gandalf's happy jaunt with Thorin Oakenshield and friends...

[Yvienn]

Actually Gandalf shows no fireballs (at least in books), and I think it's rather that his magnitude as a wizard does not consist on throwing spells or so, but on his great wisdom. In one book I've read that Gandalf is some kind of Middle Earth's angel.

[Morning Star]

Well...he does set a pinecone on fire and throw it at a wargs nose in the hobbit. He makes all the goblins torches go out before causing fireworks of somesort to stun/kill several of them...he assists Elrond at the ford (the horses were his special effects...nothing to do with Arwen, unlike the movies depiction)

The breaking of the bridge in Moria...geez...I do agree with Yvienn that the magnitude of his wisdom is his greatest asset..but whoever said he doesnt cast that many spells should look again.

[I, Brian]

Perhaps the most powerful aspect of Gandalf, is not his general magic, but the fact that he can influence all the major races on Middle Earth to some degree?

[polymorphikos]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

However, that in itself might not explain Gandalf's happy jaunt with Thorin Oakenshield and friends...

The miracle of post-publication rewrites. By instigating the trip Gandalf manages to unearth the ring, oust the Necromancer (interesting how this word can refer to corpse-animating, demon-cowing or simply murder via magic), and create an enviroment conducive to the final destruction of the One Ring. Which is pretty weird to look back-on reading LOTR as a teen when I read The Hobbit as a little boy. Only some of which he was directly conscious of doing, thus not contravening the embargo against his using his magic to meddle in stuff too much.

Stupid post. Ignore it.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by knivesout

I believe that wizardry, in Tolkien's conception, was much more than the learning of sorcerous arts - it also meant mastery of all manner of mundane lore, and a variety of skills and experience in areas outside the working of magic itself.This is why there seem to be so few wizards in Middle Earth, and why Gandalf does not often take recourse in sorcery - it is only one in his entire range of powers

In his Letters, Tolkien wrote that:

Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn's 'healing' might be regarded as 'magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'.

Concerning the display of power by the istari, in Unfinished Tales it is written that:

(they)were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt

[Dachux]

So it's all about Gandalf. Yes, quite awkward topic to discuss, if you have only read LOTR. I think that, in LOTR Gandalf appears like character who has great wisdom, dominium and knowledge. Also his figure is simbol of self-sacrifice, honest and ideal friendship (including all the fellowship) - so that's why he becomes rewarded, and returns even more powerful. He is the true leader of good forces against Sauron in the War of the Ring. He is sent to be one by higher spirits. Tolkien tells one nore eternal theme through Gandalf. But you still don't have any idea what or who really Gandalf is.

Through my Tolkien reading expierence i have noticed that Gandalf changes. He debutes as wizard who uses magic like ordinary thing in HOBBIT (thought, it's not very ordinary for hobbits and magic in Middle-earth is not rife) Then in LOTR he gets his allstar leading role. And only reading The Sillmarillion you could find what or who he really is. Tolkien gives many lines of real mythologic characters about Gandalf like Merlin and even Odin. That could be his origin, but still he isn't one of them.

Ok, I will stop my brainstorming till it gets far worse. Just Gandalf had his own special, secret mission to complete on Middle-earth, and no one had to know about it, because it would be a failure. So he uses very less magic, but instaed of that he shows the power of knowledge, humanity and morals.

So Gandlaf is not quite fairy-tale wizard, as we know...

[Jay]

I replied to a simialr question at FBS, here it is (excue teh cut and paste):

Gandalf is indeed a Maia, now what is a Maia? Well Maiar were were one of the first creations of Iluvatar (god) along with the Valar, who together were know nas the Ainur. Both are immortal beings and the Maiar are described here:

"With the Valar came other spirits whose beings also began before the World, of the same order of the Valar, but of less degree. These are the Maiar, the people of Valar, and their servants and helpers." - Of the Maiar, Valquenta, The Silmarillion - JRR Tolkien

Note of the Valar were the more powerful order and their were 7 Lords of Valar and 7 Valier Queens, chief among them was Manwe hand chosen by Iluvatar to rule Arda, and with the possible exception of Melkor was the most powerful of the Valar. Their was 15 in total but Melkor at this time was no longer counted amongst the Valar and his name is not spoken upon earth. Melkor is of course the First Dark Lord later named Morgoth by Feanor.

Now back to Gandalf, yes he was a Maiar, but more important to the context of The Lord of the Rings he was an Istari. An Istari is:

"But afterwards it was said among elves that they were messengers sent by the Lords of the West ( the Valar) to contest the power of Sauron if he should rise again, and to move elves and Men and all living things of good will to valiant deeds. In the likeness of men they apeeared, old but vigorous, and they changed little with years, and aged but slowly, thogu great cares lay on them; great wisdom they had and, many powers of mind and hand." - Of the Rings of Power and the 3rd Age, The Silmarillion, JRR Tolkien

Now a note on the Istari, which their were a few Sarumon, Gandalf, Radghast, and the Blue Wizards, they were indeed Maiar but limited due to being in human forms as told here by Tolkien:

"forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open displays of power." - JRR Tolkien

Sarumon was sent first then Gandalf whose Maiar name was Olorin, his mandate from Manwe is told here:

"But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth. But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin" - The Istari, Unfinsihed Tales - JRR Tolkien

Now who knew their identities in Middle Earth? Tolkien notes here:

"They belonged soley to the 3rd Age and then departed and none save Elrond, Ciridan, and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came" - from Istari, Book of Lost Tales - JRR Tolkien

The 3 major Elf Lords of the time knew who they were and Tolkein later added Glorfindel, in this passge who knew Gandalf as Olorin in Valinor:

"It is indeed probable that he [Glorfindel] had in Valinor already become a friend and follower of Olórin. Even in the brief glimpses of him given in "The Lord of the Rings" he appears as specially concerned for Gandalf, and was one (the most powerful, it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell when the disquieting news reached Elrond that Gandalf had never reappeared to guide or protect the Ring-bearer." --The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME V.12 - Last Writings. - JRR Tolkien


Here we learn Olorin is associated with Manwe himself, as said above the Maiar were the lesser of Ainu, and their helpers:

"There are here also some rough tables relating the names of the Istari to the names of the Valar: Olórin to Manwë and Varda, Curumo to Aulë, Aiwendil to Yavanna, Alatar to Oromë, and Pallando also to Oromë" - The Istari Unfinsihed Tales - Christopher Tolkien


Now in reference to Spear and Buckler's comparison that "Gandalf is a Maia like Sauron" which as I said he is indeed most correct, I also wanted to add that their are extremely varying degrees of power amongst the Maiar. Sauron is one of if not the most power incarnation of a Maiar on Middle Earth, even if Gandlalf was not restricted of his power due to his human form, and mandate, he nor perhaps any other Maiar could defeat Sauron, and he is very aware of it. Note Gandalf was defeated by the Balrog of Maiar (yes I know he slew it but, he also died) which is in fact as Maiar also as noted here:

" For the Maiar many were drawn into his (Morgoth) splendor in the days of hsi greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he coruppted afterwards to his service with lies and trecherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle Earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror " Of the Enemies, Valaquenta, The Silmarillion - JRR Tolkien

And of Sauron this is stated:

"Among these of his (Morgoth) servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorathaur the cruel. In the begining he was a Maiar of Aule, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people...(cut)...and was only less evil than his master in that he served another and not himself" - of the Enemies, Valquenta, The Silmarrillion, JRR Tolkien

It is also rather inetresting to note that both Sauron and Sarumon (who's Maia name was Curumo) were both of the same member of the Valar Aule.

[Treikayan]

Originally Posted by Sirathiel

In fact all those called 'wizard' in LotR are Maiar, including Sauron (if I remember correctly). They were each chosen by a Valar to watch out for Melkor's activities in Middle Earth (except Sauron, who just went with Melkor, was redeemed and returned to Melkor again...). Sorry, but I don't remember who chose Gandalf and who Saruman... But I think it was Mandos and Aule.

Right, Saruman became apprentice to Aulë. This would make sense, since Aulë was a smith and Saruman had a mind of wheels and metal.
I think though that Gandalf or Olórin also learned the ways of Nienna, valier of pity. This would probably be the reasons why Gollum was allowed to live through the Lord of the Rings. He probably taught pity to Bilbo and Frodo just the same (just a theory of course).

Right, Sauron went with Melkor. Aren't the Balrogs Maiar too?

[Jay]

As I already stated bove teh ywere send by Manwe and chsoen by him directly.

Right, Sauron went with Melkor. Aren't the Balrogs Maiar too?

Indeed:

" For the Maiar many were drawn into his (Morgoth) splendor in the days of hsi greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he coruppted afterwards to his service with lies and trecherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle Earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror " Of the Enemies, Valaquenta, The Silmarillion - JRR Tolkien

[Raynor]

As I already stated bove teh ywere send by Manwe and chsoen by him directly

Manwe only "chose" Olorin:

Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales, the Istari

Of major interest, however, is a brief and very hasty sketch of a narrative, telling of a council of the Valar, summoned it seems by Manwë ("and maybe he called upon Eru for counsel?"), at which it was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle-earth. "Who would go ? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë

[Jay]

LOL! Your quoting a passage I already quoted above. I used a bad word with "chose" they were sent by Manwe's mandate - his council.

This is the quote I usee above:

"But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth. But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin" - The Istari, Unfinsihed Tales - JRR Tolkien