For young women only?

[Leto]

Ok thanks for the info, I'll keep that in mind when looking for the books.

[Princess Ivy]

Originally Posted by Sirathiel

That's the order of the first books as I remember it. Sadly, Anne McCaffrey's homepage seems to be down or something. The guide was put up there... Hopefully, it'll get fixed soon.

The kitchen Table has closed down. I have posted this and several sister site addys in another thread

[Amber]

Hm actually I found it the other way round. Anne McCaffrey's female 'heroines' always irritated me a lot. They weren't the sort of heroines I like. Her 'heroines' relied on men, and were fairly often used as adjuncts. Their roles are not as important within the series. As far as I remember there was never a Female Earth Prime, even though the Rowan was just as strong as her husband. Damia falls in love with Sodian showing her essential fallibility and blindness. She quite willingly strips naked to attract Afra- is this the mark of a self possessed intelligent woman?

With the Dragon riders, woman are forced to sleep with someone not of their choice, simply because their dragons mated with a man's bronze dragon. I remember one book about a girl with a queen dragon who didn't want to sleep around. I can't remember her name except that she ended up with Fnor, it was Bren or something. Anyhow she was laughed at and her viewpoint misunderstood. Women were drudges- Lessa before her dragon. They were allowed no dragons other than queens and later in the series greens, and even then only under sufference, and those queens are there to produce eggs. Why were the queens riders not the squadron commanders? It was their mates the wing flyers who were and who ruled the Weyr.

In every book, women are portrayed as always needing a man to support them, and usually as being less powerful than men. When a strong, intelligent, beautiful woman does crop up, she is invariably cast as the evil man hunting, crop stealing bandit leader.

Don't get me wrong with this little impassioned speech. I enjoyed her books, and I even still read them occasinally. I accept they were written in a slightly different time, but as a sixteen year old girl myself I can safely say that most intelligent woman would not relish being an Anne McCaffrey character. For a strong woman hero who retains sexuality look at Eowyn (LOTR,) Althea (Robin Hobb's Liveship Traders, Ursula le Guins female characters etc.

Sorry for writing so much, but it is a subject I feel strongly on.

[Lacedaemonian]

most intelligent women would not relish being an Anne McCaffrey character

Excellent.

[Amber]

Thanks ^^ Do you agree then?

[Lacedaemonian]

I have not read enough McCaffrey to make that judgement. I just think that it is so cutting.

[Alexa]

Hmm. I kinda liked Rowan, more than her daughter anyway. But I liked Althea, too. Different type, different taste.

[Amber]

^^ Thanks Alexa. But Rowan was a okay character- though I still want to know why she isn't Earth Prime. That's plain wrong.

[Alexa]

Do you remember she was not quite a gift before her marriage ? And how many got fired before Afra ? If I understood right, the Earth Prime had to be very strong in telephatie and balanced as a person in order to help the others with the right decision in need. I belive Rowan was quite close to this position, but she had to take care of Damia. Hmm. That's an interesting character. She loved Afra since she was born, more than her parents. If Rowan dreamed to be a Prime before marriage, her daughter dreamed about Afra all her life.

[Amber]

H. Earth prime from what I've seen was no more balanced than Rowan. Why have there been no female Earth Prime's? Does a feminie mind automatically exclude the position of most power?

or am I merely an unusual girl with unusual expectations of female heroines?

[Alexa]

A feminine mind, no. But even in the real life the society puts forward men and women behind. In my opinion, Anne McCaffrey considered that in her novels. I don't say it's fair. Althea also needed Brahen, with all her strong character and ambition to win.

Maybe in the next century, women will have their right place, on the same position.

[Princess Ivy]

As Alexa pointed out, the Rowan was to erratic to become earth prime. It had nothing to do with her femininity. Yes, i have noticed that a lot of maccaffrey heroines do tend to deffer to their male counterparts, and yet, this in itself is true to life. as much as we might scream and wish it were other wise. the best way to make men do things is to let them think its their idea in the first place and guide them. And right or wrong, principles or no, women tend to do whats most effective. I always ranted that i would never use that sort of approach with my life, and yet, i have found myself doing so as an effective means of getting the job done.

[Amber]

There is a significant difference between Althea/ Brashen and Mccaffrey 'heroines.' Althea was a strong character in her own right, forthright and bold. Brashen and her melded perfectly- each with strength and weakness's of their own. Althea does not defer to Brashen except in situations such as those aboard the whaler ship.

McCaffrey unfortunately perpetuates that view of women. It is not good enough to say 'that is the way things are and it might change soon.' Female science fiction writers can take the step in their own hands by portraying smart, powerful, feminine woman who are strong enough and capable to manage things in their own books.

McCaffrey does not give a proper view of women at all, disappointing as she is one of the most well known. When compared to other science fiction female writers she certainly comes out second best.

Laria could not manage without a man by her side- a disgraceful state to portray things. Are women so totally bound to whoever their latest boyfriend is?
Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that they shouldn't have husbands etc- this is an important side of women that needs to be explored, but I am saying they should be strong enough so that if it is necessary they can manage on their own.
On the other hand this is just my opinion, and I do cantankerous rather well for someone who isn't an old man

[Rane Longfox]

Originally Posted by Amber

McCaffrey unfortunately perpetuates that view of women. It is not good enough to say 'that is the way things are and it might change soon.' Female science fiction writers can take the step in their own hands by portraying smart, powerful, feminine woman who are strong enough and capable to manage things in their own books.

McCaffrey does not give a proper view of women at all, disappointing as she is one of the most well known. When compared to other science fiction female writers she certainly comes out second best.

Laria could not manage without a man by her side- a disgraceful state to portray things. Are women so totally bound to whoever their latest boyfriend is?
Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that they shouldn't have husbands etc- this is an important side of women that needs to be explored, but I am saying they should be strong enough so that if it is necessary they can manage on their own.
On the other hand this is just my opinion, and I do cantankerous rather well for someone who isn't an old man

Are you saying that all female characters in books should be strong, independant and all that? Surely that isn't a fair representation. Now, I haven't read McCaffrey, so I can't comment specifically, and try to avoid cliche-ridden fantasy series, but its nice and easy to write like that, and sells books And besides, I'm sure some women are like that, in the same way that some men are totally controlled by whoever their latest girlfriend is... I think the mistake you're making is assuming that one female character represents all women
Like I said, I haven't read McCaffrey, so please correct me if I'm wrong. And I have no intention of getting into discussions about feminism and the like, which I don't really have a very well informed view on

[Amber]

No... Not all women are like that unfortunately. I'm just saying *no* Mccaffrey women are like that. It's bought by men who would like it to be true that woman are like that. Anyhow, it's science fiction not a sociology novel- it's futuristic, not today. We don't need to project old stereotypes. We'll invent our own!

Michael Collins quote there

Hey at least we've had a good discussion