Giving Jonas a Chance? (Spoilers)

[Hatshepsut]

Giving Jonas a Chance?

I've heard quite a lot of people saying, "Aw, poor Jonas - we've got to give him a chance to prove himself." Like:

Jack: "Just tell the truth."
Quinn: "I can't. Even if I wanted to..."

and:

Quinn :"I brought this. Naqadria. Took as much as I could."

and:

Quinn: "Obviously they do not know I am here. [...] If I am caught returning to my planet, I will be considered a traitor."

doesn't give a few clues as to his real character.

But - we have to give him a chance...

Before I go on, I'll confess that my feet are firmly in the wishy-washy, bleeding-heart liberal camp. I don't normally talk about what I do in my spare time because, in Britain, the word "do-gooder" is usually used pejoratively, and attracts a whole heap of mockery. However, just for the record, for over nine years now, I've been doing voluntary work, helping people who've reached absolute rock bottom. But just because I care, doesn't mean I walk around with my eyes closed to reality, and I don't call a spade ‘a digging implement'

So - giving Jonas a chance - and wearing my Aesop hat...

Imagine, if you will, that I'm the manager of a bank in a country known for its Draconian laws. Next door to my bank is The Colona China Shop. Its owner is a rather unpleasant piece of work, but Jim, the man who manages the shop for him is reasonably pleasant as are Tom, the supervisor and the salesgirls.

One day, the owner employs a workman, Dave, to put up some new shelving. Tom hasn't given Dave some vital information he needs and as a result, the whole structure, including some exceedingly expensive figurines, comes crashing down, bringing a whole lot of other stuff with it.

The boss blames Dave. Tom and the girls keep quiet. Jim goes along with them and Dave, who's a cousin of mine, get the blame. I complain to Jim. Feeling guilty, he tells the truth to the boss. The boss is furious. Tom is furious because he gets it in the neck, and the girls, who fancy Tom, refuse to speak to Jim.

Jim salvages a beautiful china tea-set from the wreckage. He comes into my bank and makes me a present of the tea-set. Then he offers to come and work for me...

I can't send him packing, because if I do, he'll have no job at all. Also, once the boss has had time to check through all the debris, he'll spot the missing tea-set. As Jim has decmped, the boss will know who's nicked it, so Jim'll probably get caught for the theft which means he'll have his hand cut off.

So do I take him on and give him the keys to the vault? Do I Hell!!! I'm not that stupid.

How do I solve the problem? I return the china, hopefully before anyone's had time to miss it, which should let him of the hook for the theft. Then I supply him with a cloth and some Brasso and set him to cleaning the bank's brass plaque etc. If he keeps his nose clean for a year or so, I might promote him to tea-boy.

So, right, let's give Jonas a chance. Give him a mop and bucket and let him swab all those corridors in the S.G.C. Problem solved

Best wishes,
Hatshepsut :wave:

P.S. If you come across a street vendor selling ‘The Big Issue', please don't pass by. Stop and buy one. It's quite an interesting magazine, and for many sellers, it's the first step (back) to a normal life.
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[skydiver]

i personally plan to get to know the guy before i drag out my jonas quinn voodoo doll and burn it in effigy. Less than ten minutes of screen time in a cobbled together script simply isn't enough time for me to get to know a character.

[Hatshepsut]

Originally posted by skydiver
Less than ten minutes of screen time in a cobbled together script simply isn't enough time for me to get to know a character.

Possibly not, but when one hears the incontrovertible lines:

Quinn: "I brought this. Naqadria. Took as much as I could."

and

Sam: "He stole some Naqadria for us."

then one knows he is not suitable material for S.G.C.'s flagship first contact team. He's already stolen once for the Tau'ri. How can he be trusted not to do the same thing again?

Stealing from one's allies, or potential allies, can lead to all sorts of trouble as emplified in 'Shades of Grey', an episode in which both Colonel O'Neill and General Hammond left the audience in no doubt that, in their eyes, such behaviour is absolutely intolerable.

To tolerate it now is completely out of character and a serious continuity error.

Nor is the acquisition of naquadria a satisfactory excuse, given that, in 'The Other Side', S.G.C. refused to sink its principles at that time in order to gain highly desirable technology from the Eurondans. Why should they do so now?

Furthermore, he has already done a runner from his own people:

Quinn: "Obviously they do not know I am here. ... If I am caught returning to my planet I will be considered a traitor."

What is to stop him from doing the same thing from the Tau'ri when the chips are down? (As they all too often are. :lol: )

The fault lies entirely with whoever was responsible for setting him up as a thief and a traitor in the first place. He/They didn't have to give him such unacceptable character defects - could just as easily have made him an honest man, and one who was sent to Earth as a diplomat on behalf of his country. I don't have a problem with that.

On the other hand, I do have a problem with a company that has so little respect for me and my fellow fans as to expect us to accept without question that S.G.C. should stray so far away from its own declared code of honour. It's an insult to our capacity for rational thought. :angryfire I am also exceedingly sorry the company's deliberate actions here have sucked so many people into their undesirable debate.

As I said, find him a job if you must, just not with S.G. -1. It's not as if there aren't better candidates, like Nyan or Major Davis.

Best wishes,
Hatshepsut :wave:
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[gategeek]

okay, hat. i realize you feel very strongly about this situation and i respect your right to do so. the problem is this - there are quite a few of us who feel very differently. it's not that we don't understand your arguments - we simply do not agree. as the cliche goes - sometimes you just have to agree to disagree.
shanilka

[Hatshepsut]

I take your point, Shanilka and I'm not saying throw him back to the sharks on Colona, you understand?

As a matter of fact, he appears in one of my fanfics., and is currently cataloguing artefacts that are too heavy to move in the Smithsonian so you can see that I'm quite humanitarian here

However, I have yet to see a reasoned argument (argument in the philosophical sense, that is) put forward which provides any logical justification for T.P.T.B.'s position regarding the inclusion of Quinn in S.G. -1.

Can anybody provide one?

Just asking, and willing to listen...

Best wishes,
Hatshepsut :wave:
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[ShelbyS]

Originally posted by skydiver
i personally plan to get to know the guy before i drag out my jonas quinn voodoo doll and burn it in effigy.

LOL :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

Where does one get a JQ voodoo doll?
nah, just kidding. I suppose he does deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Yes I know I'm slowly changing my opinion from hating him to actually giving him a chance (Agh what's happeing to me?). I guess we can't dwell on Michael forever.

[gategeek]

Originally posted by Hatshepsut


However, I have yet to see a reasoned argument (argument in the philosophical sense, that is) put forward which provides any logical justification for T.P.T.B.'s position regarding the inclusion of Quinn in S.G. -1.


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the problem here again are the words "reason", "philosophy" and "logic". these can vary depending on one's frame of reference. what is logical and reasonable to you may be quite the opposite to someone else.
where you see a thief and a liar, others may see a defector. someone who was part of a system, believed in and prospered by that system until something came along and shook his faith. at first he tries to defend it, but finally realizes he cannot defend it or defend his part in it so he gives up his cozy, comfortable position and decides to defect. when he does so he brings his secrets (the naqadria) with him. he didn't HAVE to leave colona - he chose to do so.
as for not putting defectors on your flagship team, in this country defectors have held very high positions in the government (remember henry kissinger?) also, jonas' position is a little different than a cold war defector since we are not engaged in hostilities with his planet. he's more like a defector from haiti - he wouldn't face nearly as many restrictions as a former soviet agent since his country is not a threat to us.
shanilka

[Hatshepsut]

Originally posted by gategeek
where you see a thief and a liar,

I only see a thief because the script said (inter alia) "He stole..."

Thieves steal, ergo he is a thief. Q.E.D.

others may see a defector. someone who was part of a system, believed in and prospered by that system until something came along and shook his faith. at first he tries to defend it, but finally realizes he cannot defend it or defend his part in it.

I don't have any problem with people defecting per se. Simply, one doesn't put them in positions of power at the first opportunity.

as for not putting defectors on your flagship team, in this country defectors have held very high positions in the government (remember Henry Kissinger?)

A very good example there, and one which makes my point for me:

Henry Kissinger settled in the U.S. in 1938.

He became a presidential advisor in 1968...

He had to prove his worth before he attained a position of power, thirty years later. I'm just saying that, rationally, Quinn should do the same. If Kissinger didn't get preferential treatment, why should Quinn? Especially when there are a number of demonstrably better candidates for the job.

also, jonas' position is a little different than a cold war defector since we are not engaged in hostilities with his planet. he's more like a defector from haiti - he wouldn't face nearly as many restrictions as a former soviet agent since his country is not a threat to us.

At the moment, possibly not. However, when the Colonans discover that their Naquadria is missing and trace its whereabouts to the U.S.A., this could well be Another Matter, unless, of course, the stolen property is returned to its rightful owner as with the Tollans, the Asgard and the Nox in 'Shades of Grey'.

Best wishes,
Hatshepsut :wave:

P.S. Purely by co-incidence...
I also subscribe to 'A.Word.A.Day'. This is today's word.

estoppel (e-STOP-el) noun

A bar preventing one from asserting a claim inconsistent from what was previously stated, especially when it has been relied upon by others.

[From Old French estoupail (bung, cork) from estouper (stopper).]

Not that I'm considering suing T.P.T.B. over it
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[gategeek]

hat, i was not trying to convince you. i was merely pointing out how others may view it. what makes perfect sense to you may seem wildly illogical to someone else - it doesn't mean either one is wrong.
shanilka

[skydiver]

of course the american govt. and the sgc would never dream of doing anything unethical.

which is why they were ready, willing and able to basically KIDNAP the tollans to have access to thier tech in Enigma.

And were planning to STEAL trinium from the indians in Spirits ( i believe the plan was to wait until they migrated for the year then sneak in, mine the trinium and sneak back out)

Not to mention telling the Nox if they truly wanted to be left alone they needed to bury thier gate.


and of course, let's not forget the other liar, traitor and thief among them...Teal'c.

He lied about having a family, is a traitor to his people, a fact that has almost gotten SG-1 killed on more than one occasion, and he stole his weapon and the intelligence in his brain from Apophis.
Add to that fact that he was directly responsible for the death of the female soldier in COTG and indirectly responsible for the deaths of the other 4 people in the room

Personally, i doubt you're gonna see Jonas leaping through the gate in the first eps. He'll be there but i don't think he's gonna be automatically a member of sg-1. I could be wrong...i'll find out in 29 days i guess.

[Hatshepsut]

I'll try not to turn this into a long analytical debate involving the deconstruction of all the relevant episodes... :lol:

Originally posted by skydiver

they were ready, willing and able to basically KIDNAP the tollans to have access to their tech in Enigma.

which turned out to be a very bad idea from which they learned a great deal in the wisdom sense if not the technological one. Oh - I'd query the 'able', BTW :lol:

The efforts that Jack went to in order to retrieve stolen technology in 'Shades of Grey' verified that this learning experience had been taken on board, and the 'bad guys' from the N.I.D. were brought to justice. We learn later from 'Chain Reaction' that Maybourne is facing the death penalty for treason.

So, explain to me again, please, what the rationale is for why Jack would willingly work with Quinn, not just as a one off under extreme circumstances, but as a regular member of his team.

And were planning to STEAL trinium from the indians in Spirits ( i believe the plan was to wait until they migrated for the year then sneak in, mine the trinium and sneak back out)

Which turned out to be a truly colossal blunder (erm, who was it who hauled their asses out of the fire on that one? I forget.) It was also another learning experience - that acquiring desirable technology/materials at any cost is A Bad Thing. We know they took that lesson on board from 'The Other Side' where they refused to compromise their principles to get the highly desirable Eurondan technology.

and of course, let's not forget the other liar, traitor and thief among them...Teal'c.

I'm not going to get side-tracked into the Teal'c issue or we'd be here till kingdom come :lol: The two cases are different in so many ways. But, if you like, I'll examine them for you...

Best wishes,
Hatshepsut :wave:
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[gategeek]

okay, hat - once more from the top. you have a certain interpretation of the events you mention above. you have every right to believe as you do. some of us, however, have a different interpretation. we DON'T hate jonas. we CAN imagine scenarios where jack would accept him. we DO see similarities between teal'c and jonas.
denise and i hang out on alot of the same lists - one of which is extremely danny-centric. i doubt if you could put forth any argument that we haven't heard before. i say again - it's not that we don't understand, we simply do not agree. it's like religion or politics, people will have different views. although it does strike me as bizarre that a television show can inspire the same level of passion.
shanilka