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| Buffy What started out as a campy movie, became one of the hottest shows on TV, with seven action packed seasons. Discuss the complete Buffy: the Vampire Slayer saga here. |
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6th March 2002, 07:46 AM
| #1 (permalink) |
| Angel Among Us Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 32
| So, are you saying that through his suffering, Spike is now atoning for his sins -- at least some of them?? Hmmm.... Where have I heard this before??? Here's something that really intrigues me about Spike -- he is branded as "evil" and yet, he loves. Typically, throughout the histories and religions that I have studied, this is not known. What do you "guys" think? Shiva loves -- Satan doesn't.... Just a thought. M.:blpaw: |
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6th March 2002, 11:17 PM
| #4 (permalink) |
| OB-Wan  Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,357
| [VAMPette: How can someone be evil if they love something else?] I think the reason you are all going astray is because you are laboring under a fallacy. "Evil" people can hate and love. "Good" people can love and hate. People are contradictory, you can't predict them or label them with 100% accuracy because the factors that affect the mind are too numerous. When I was in US Navy boot camp there was one recruit in my Company that was totally honest and trustworthy - a real choirboy. I would have trusted him to hold my wallet. When we were leaving, on the bus to the airport, he asked if I wanted to see something in his duffel bag that was "neat". He then showed me his blanket that we were supposed to turn in before we left - he had STOLEN his blanket! Now, you have to understand, I was absolutely shocked and stunned. It never occurred to me that he would steal anything! He then told me, "When my Dad was in the Navy, he stole a dozen of these and I'm going to beat him." He was perfectly trustworthy in every way, but don't trust him with your blanket. All because he had some desire to compete with his dad. At that moment, I had a revelation and I suddenly grasped just how complex the human psyche is. It can cause "evil" people to do good things and "good" people to commit evil acts. No one is all evil or all good. I don't have any evidence, but I'm sure that Hitler was generous and kind to his friends and Sister Teresa (spelling?) probably had her petty, bitchy moments. And, BTW, I'm sure that Satan loves - he loves Hitler, Pol Pot and others of their ilk. Haven't you seen South Park, hee hee? |
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7th March 2002, 12:14 PM
| #5 (permalink) |
| R.I.P. Ashes Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Australia
Posts: 1,798
| I have to agree with obcooke on this one. I think that love is not necessarily only for good guys. It's a very powerful emotion that can cause extremes in a persons behaviour, it may make bad guys act good or make good guys insanely jealous. And WHY did you have to mention satan and south park?!?! Now I'll never get those images with Satan and Saddam out of my head   |
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8th March 2002, 01:52 AM
| #6 (permalink) |
| Angel Among Us Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 32
| There is one thing that you guys are overlooking -- although your points are both valid and interesting -- and that is Spike isn't human! Human beings, yes, I agree with what you are saying completely, but I was refering to the supernatural. I have yet to find any text on mythology or religion that allows for a truly evil creature to truly love someone/something. If you know of one (or more), I would be really interested in reading it. Seriously. I love this kind of thing! By the way, I might have to go back through some of my tapes, but I believe Angel even expressed the same thing. That when he was evil, he never loved anything; he couldn't. I'll look this weekend. Anywho... M.:blpaw: |
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8th March 2002, 03:17 AM
| #7 (permalink) |
| OB-Wan Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,357
| [HersheyG: I have yet to find any text on mythology or religion that allows for a truly evil creature to truly love someone/something. If you know of one (or more), I would be really interested in reading it.] I'm pretty sure that you already know some of them. Didn't the Lord of the Underworld, Pluto, kidnap his bride, Persephone, thus causing winter? But he eventually allowed her to return for part of the year, thus returning spring and summer every year? But make no mistake, he stole her and forces her to return to the underworld every fall/winter. A strange story of a strange love, but love nonetheless. In many myths, there were gods like Pluto, Hades, Loki, etc., who were evil, but married to their beloved. I don't recall any stories of Loki betraying Sigyn. That's all I can come up with on short notice. |
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8th March 2002, 07:52 AM
| #9 (permalink) |
| OB-Wan Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,357
| [Shaun: And I don't see how it can be love if its different from the love humans experience...] Well, love has a definition. Let's use Webster's since it's readily available on-line. The first definitions (the rest are repetitious or irrelevant): • strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties • attraction based on sexual desire • affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests • warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion • unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's the link, in case, you want to read them all, unedited - just search for "love". -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't see any reference to humans in these definitions. There's every reason to believe that animals, man, demons, Gods or vampires, like Spike, can experience these affections, attachments, loyalties, lusts and concerns for another - various forms of love. But that still doesn't make Spike my favorite vamp. |
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8th March 2002, 06:20 PM
| #10 (permalink) |
| The Big Bad.  Join Date: May 2001 Location: ENGLAND!
Posts: 2,369
| Vampires don't have to be pure evil. They used to be human so they know the emotions and they're still partly human anyway. But some are pure evil, such as Angelus (proved by the 'humanity test' by 'The Judge'). |
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9th March 2002, 02:21 AM
| #12 (permalink) |
| OB-Wan Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,357
| I really want to followup on this discussion, but for two things: I don't have time, because this American is on his way out to do some of his favorite things - drink beer and play darts. AND, as a moderator, I have done a terrible job of keeping us on-topic. I apologize. I have started a new thread for this discussion - "Can Vampires Love?" and moved our discussion there. Please feel free to jump over there and keep the ball rolling. I really want to respond Vamp, including dredging up some of our old songs from my ancient thread, "Can vampires be redeemed?". But I don't have the time right now. See you over in the other thread. |
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9th March 2002, 01:54 PM
| #14 (permalink) |
| The Big Bad. Join Date: May 2001 Location: ENGLAND!
Posts: 2,369
| Giles: Maybe. Maybe not. In my experience, there are... two types of monster. The first, uh, can be redeemed, or more importantly, wants to be redeemed. Buffy: And the second type? Giles: The second is void of humanity, cannot respond to reason... or love. Well it depends on what one of these the vampire in question is. |
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9th March 2002, 11:14 PM
| #15 (permalink) |
| OB-Wan Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,357
| Okay, I'm back. Well, Josh has really been all over the map with the questions of evil/love, human/vampire and vampire/good. I have gathered the collected lore, as least some of it, by searching five seasons of Buffy transcripts for the word "demon". As well as, skimming Angel #039 Disharmony. It's very long, I apologize for that, but it's all relevant and a starting point for our discussion. Here goes: --------------------------------------------- Xander: So vampires are demons? Giles: The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed, infected by the demon’s soul. He bit another, and another, and so they walk the Earth, feeding... ----------------------- Buffy: ...Can a vampire ever be a good person? Couldn’t it happen? Giles: A vampire isn’t a person at all. It may have the movements, the, the memories, even the personality of the person that it took over, but i-it’s still a demon at the core, there is no halfway. Willow: So that’d be a no, huh? ----------------------- Angel: When you become a vampire the demon takes your body, but it doesn’t get your soul. That’s gone! No conscience, no remorse. . . It’s an easy way to live. ----------------------- Giles: ...A demon is a creature of evil, pure and very simple. ----------------------- Ford [about becoming a vamp]: ...I will become immortal. Buffy: Well, I’ve got a news flash for you, braintrust:that’s not how it works. You die, and a demon sets up shop in your old house, and it walks, and it talks, and it remembers your life, but it’s not you. ----------------------- Angel: I’ve had a demon inside me for a couple hundred years... ----------------------- Buffy: ...Do you remember my ex-boyfriend, the vampire? I slept with him, he lost his soul, now my boyfriend’s gone forever, and the demon that wears his face is killing my friends. ----------------------- Giles: Well, the, uh, the Demon Universe exists in a dimension separate from our own. ----------------------- Angel: You’re not a vampire. Whistler: A demon... technically. I mean, I’m not a bad guy. Not all demons are dedicated to the destruction of all life. ----------------------- Buffy: ...What are you, just some immortal demon sent down to even the score between good and evil? Whistler: Wow. Good guess. ----------------------- Willow: It's horrible! That's me as a vampire? I'm so evil and... skanky. And I think I'm kinda gay. Buffy: Willow, just remember, a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was. Angel: Well, actually... ----------------------- Angel: A demon isn’t a man. I was a man once. ----------------------- Demon: Ow! Ooh! What are you, nuts? Going around punching people? Buffy: People? Demon: So what, I’ma demon. That makes it okay? ----------------------- Buffy: Oh, let him go. I don’t think he falls into the deadly threat to humanity category. Faith: A demon’s a demon. ----------------------- Wesley: Of all the demons that we’ve faced... Anya: You’ve never seen a demon. Buffy: Uh, excuse me? Kind of professionally, four years running. Anya: All the demons that walk the earth are tainted, are human hybrids like vampires. The Ascension means that a human becomes pure demon. They’re different. Giles: Different? Buffy: How? Anya: Well, for one thing, they’re bigger. ----------------------- Anya: D’Hoffryn got wind of me, he offered to elevate me. Buffy: Meaning? Anya: He made me a demon. [She doesn't say that a demon possessed her, but he made her into a demon.] ----------------------- Anya: Blessed be, the name of D’Hoffryn. Let this space be now a gateway to the world of Arash Ma’har, where demons are spawned. ----------------------- Giles [to Spike]: Um, thinking about your affliction and, uh, your newfound discovery that you can fight only demons... ["only demons" - if vampires are part-human wouldn't Spike's chip prevent him from attacking them?] ----------------------- Willow [about the Initiative]: Well, what’s their ultimate agenda? I mean, okay, yeah, they, they neuter vampires and demons. But then what? Are they gonna reintegrate them into society? Get them jobs as bagboys at Wal-Mart? ----------------------- ADAM: ...Vampires are a paradox. Boone: Okay. We’re a paradox. That’s cool. ADAM: Demon in a human body. You walk in both worlds and belong to neither. I can relate. ----------------------- Buffy: Whoo! Vampire-demon tag team. Who says we can’t all get along? Riley: Don’t recall ever seeing that before. Buffy: It never happened. Vamps... hate demons... Like stripes and polka dots. Major ...clashing. ----------------------- Giles: Extraordinarily odd. As a rule, demons... have no empathy for any of the species other than their own. In fact, most think of vampires as... abominations. Mixing with human blood and all. ----------------------- Buffy: You sounded like Mr. Initiative. Demons bad, people good. Riley: Something wrong with that theorem? Buffy: There’s different degrees of... Riley: Evil? Buffy: It’s just... different with different demons. There are creatures - vampires, for example – that aren’t evil at all. Riley: Name one. ----------------------- Anya: What kind of demon is she? There’s a lot of different kinds. Some are very, very evil. And some have been considered to be useful members of society. ----------------------- Giles: ...Glory and two of her fellow hellgods ruled over... one of the more seriously unpleasant demon dimensions. Tara: There’s more than one? Anya: Oh, there are thousands of demon dimensions. All different. ----------------------- Spike: You can’t tell me that there isn’t anything there between you and me. I know you feel something. Admit... that there’s something there... some tiny... Buffy: It’s called revulsion. And whatever you think you’re feeling, it’s not love. You can’t love without a soul. Drusilla: Oh, we can, you know. We can love quite well. If not wisely. ----------------------- And from Angel: ----------------------- Wesley [about Harmony]: That is not your friend. That thing may have your friend's memories and her appearance, but it's just a filthy demon, an unholy monster. Uh, no offence. ----------------------- Cordy: That is Harmony. She's visiting for a couple of days. Wesley: It's alright to speak freely in front of her. She's a vampire. Gunn: Don't we kill 'em any more? ----------------------- Angel: ...She's the enemy. Cordy: Now you sound like Wesley. Angel: Because he's right. - Harmony will turn on you. Cordy: Why? Because you did? Angel: Because it's her nature. She's a vampire. Cordy: So are you. Angel: She doesn't have a soul. Cordy: Oh. That's it, is it? You're better than her because you have a soul? Angel: Well, yeah. ----------------------- |
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