5.22: The Gift - Page 2 - Science Fiction Fantasy Chronicles: forums

markpud · 16th January 2002, 08:19 PM

I think that Giles thought that Buffy wouldn't kill an innocent man (defenceless or not) to serve the purpose of killing Glory (flashbacks to the dilemma over Faith's killing of a human)
Giles knew that it had to be done though...

As for the tower, I don't suppose that anyone cared much about it being built, presumably her minions bought or acquired the land for it,

**minor S6 spoiler **

it was still there for the beginning of S6, so no-one bothered with it all summer long

Annette · 16th January 2002, 08:26 PM

hey Mark, won't work for me. The spoiler that is.

annette

markpud · 16th January 2002, 08:44 PM

you mean you can see it?

You have to click and drag inside the grey box to reveal the text...

Annette · 16th January 2002, 08:56 PM

Ah thanks, sussed it now. Never thought of that Mark. About the spoiler that is.

annette

obcooke · 17th January 2002, 05:04 AM

[MythingLink: Or would he still think this if he had to kill a Ben who could defend himself just to get to Glory?]

That's the inconsistancy that bothers me. At the beginning, Xander mentions killing Ben. Now, remember, they don't know that Ben has betrayed Dawn to save himself. They consider him an innocent. The strange thing is that the idea dies without comment, except a sheepish Xander regretting even considering it.

Why didn't Giles support this possiblity if he was willing to kill Dawn to prevent the ritual and pester Buffy with the idea? Why wouldn't he be even happier with killing Ben and Glory at the same time? What did they think was going to happen after they prevented the ritual? That Glory was going to thank them? They may have saved the world, but Glory would surely have killed them in a fit of rage. Sure, Giles thought that Ben would be submerged inside of Glory, but why didn't he even agree with the idea?

And what about Spike? That sounds exactly like the kind of idea that Spike would readily jump on. He may not have the ability to kill Ben himself, but he certainly would have agreed with Xander on this one.

It's one glaring flaw in my opinion. It just doesn't play real.

[MythingLink: 1. Were the scrolls...]

I think that's certainly true.

[MythingLink: 2. How come no one ever noticed that huge tower being built?]

Good question. Did they just happen to find that the portal opened over a construction site? Did they build the tower over a 3-day holiday weekend? Good thing there wasn't already a McDonalds or something there. Darn it, MythingLink, now you've pointed out another weak point in the story.

MythingLink · 17th January 2002, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by obcooke

Why didn't Giles support this possiblity if he was willing to kill Dawn to prevent the ritual and pester Buffy with the idea?

To play devil's advocate. Maybe it was because Ben was a human who had been saddled with Glory at birth and Dawn was a construct.

Quote:

Why wouldn't he be even happier with killing Ben and Glory at the same time? What did they think was going to happen after they prevented the ritual? That Glory was going to thank them?

He does say something along those lines while he's suffocating Ben ... just before or during. I don't remember.

Quote:

And what about Spike? That sounds exactly like the kind of idea that Spike would readily jump on. He may not have the ability to kill Ben himself, but he certainly would have agreed with Xander on this one.

I don't remember when this happens, but if it was during the I Love You Guys scene he may have been only thinking about that.

Quote:

[MythingLink: 2. How come no one ever noticed that huge tower being built?]

Good question. Did they just happen to find that the portal opened over a construction site? Did they build the tower over a 3-day holiday weekend? Good thing there wasn't already a McDonalds or something there. Darn it, MythingLink, now you've pointed out another weak point in the story.

When Buffy and Co. rounded that corner and saw that thing, their jaws dropping to the ground, that was my first thought. It couldn't have been that far from The Magic Shop. They walked there following Tara.

Unless it was an actual construction site and Glory took it over and subverted it to that tower thing. There was what looked like a dead construction worker behind Glory somewhere in that scene after Willow does her thing and no reason for him being there that I saw ... unless they cut a bit of film to add another commercial.

Cheers,

markpud · 24th January 2002, 08:09 PM

well in S6...

dawn says that the tower was build by crazy people, so it wasn't an existing construction...

MythingLink · 25th January 2002, 12:41 PM

I guess it's just one of those things we'll have to live with.

Cheers,

MythingLink · 25th January 2002, 01:19 PM

This came up on one of the mailing lists I'm on ...

Some people were discussing whether or not Buffy always knew that she would have to die and also that what she did was equal to committing suicide. What do you all think?

Cheers,

Highlander II · 28th January 2002, 07:22 PM

okay - finally got to see this one too -

wonder if the spell Glory had on everyone to make them forget that she and Ben were the same person had any affect on seeing the tower? -- b/c by the time they were following Tara to the site, they all knew that Ben and Glory were the same --

i really like the scene where Buffy walks into her house just rambling on, telling Spike where the weapons are, and he just stops outside the door and tells her to hand them over the threshold b/c he hadn't been re-invited -- no snide remark, no snippy comment, just a line that states - 'you uninvited me, remember?' - plain, simple --

then, when she lets him in - still - nothing (okay, he cracked a tiny smile)-- he just grabs the weapons, promises to protect Dawn and tells Buffy he knows she never loved him --- very straighforward --

and the end -- so much emotion - from everyone -

Mysterious Stranger · 15th March 2002, 03:20 PM

Just saw this one again on fX and I have to admit, the Stranger needed a hanky. I had almost forgotten how much this eppy affected me the first time around. It also helps put some of Season 6 in perspective.

Highlander II · 15th March 2002, 05:19 PM

someone asked me about Spike fighting off 'Doc' -- and asked why he didn't 'do more' to try to break free b4 he was pushed off the tower, then said 'see, Buffy didn't have a problem' --

1st - the real reason - dramatic effect - if Spike fails, well, it's more dramatic and Buffy can 'save the day' - (also adds some guilt factor for episodes of season 6)

but - another reason could be - remember - Doc's pretty fast - he shifted around and stabbed Spike in the back - now, immortal or human - that's gonna hurt and slow you down -- so, he was then pinned w/ his arms behind his back and then thrown from the tower ----

now - that scene seemed to take several seconds to occur - but, we had reaction shots and reactions to reactions and such - it's probably meant to have taken place rather quickly, but they have to slow it down to show all the reactions (not that they 'slow-mo'd' the film, just slowed the reaction time to show everyone) -- Spike to being grabbed, Dawn's reaction to Spike being grabbed, Doc's reaction to knowing he's 'won', and Spike's reaction to knowing he's gonna be shoved over the edge -- that's a lot of reacting - and to get everything - each character needs a couple seconds --- so - my guess is that only a couple seconds passed during that little facial-expression - exchange -- then bye-bye Spike ---

so - in response to the initial question -- Spike didn't have time to react ----

Highlander II · 17th March 2002, 03:58 AM

yep - more --

As Doc walks across the platform (the think that looks like a plank w/ a hole in it) - he's carrying a knife - by my best guess, it looks like a Wustoff 8" Chef Knife -- (it could be a 10", but that would be a bit awkward, those are kinda big) - and actually - the 8" would be a good choice for what he was doing - long, shallow slices ---

tho - i'm not sure where he got it -- didn't see a knife block at the Doc's place -- maybe he stopped somewhere on the way to the 'big day' --

Annette · 18th March 2002, 01:47 PM

Hi H2, thanks for all these fab explanations, when I read them I think back to the episode. Only trouble being also reminds me that I cried :crying: was soooooooooo sad.

annette

VAMPette · 18th March 2002, 03:51 PM

I missed 'The Gift' last week but just thinking back to when I first saw it, I was so taken aback at the end. I didn't know that she was going to die or that she comes back and was just wandering around really stunned that they actually did it. The series is actually so much better if you don't know what's going to happen.

15th March 2002, 03:20 PM	#26 (permalink)
Mysterious Stranger Gigi's "Spark" Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: In my dark corner, waiting... Posts: 842	Now I don't want to get off on a rant here but... Just saw this one again on fX and I have to admit, the Stranger needed a hanky. I had almost forgotten how much this eppy affected me the first time around. It also helps put some of Season 6 in perspective.

17th March 2002, 03:58 AM	#28 (permalink)
Highlander II There can be only one!! Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 9,481	more on Knives and Swords yep - more -- As Doc walks across the platform (the think that looks like a plank w/ a hole in it) - he's carrying a knife - by my best guess, it looks like a Wustoff 8" Chef Knife -- (it could be a 10", but that would be a bit awkward, those are kinda big) - and actually - the 8" would be a good choice for what he was doing - long, shallow slices --- tho - i'm not sure where he got it -- didn't see a knife block at the Doc's place -- maybe he stopped somewhere on the way to the 'big day' --

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16th January 2002, 08:19 PM	#16 (permalink)
markpud Super-Mod to the gods Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: with Buffy, in Manchester, England... Posts: 4,732	I think that Giles thought that Buffy wouldn't kill an innocent man (defenceless or not) to serve the purpose of killing Glory (flashbacks to the dilemma over Faith's killing of a human) Giles knew that it had to be done though... As for the tower, I don't suppose that anyone cared much about it being built, presumably her minions bought or acquired the land for it, minor S6 spoiler it was still there for the beginning of S6, so no-one bothered with it all summer long

16th January 2002, 08:26 PM	#17 (permalink)
Annette This is Star - my honey!! Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: West Midlands Posts: 5,944	hey Mark, won't work for me. The spoiler that is. annette

16th January 2002, 08:44 PM	#18 (permalink)
markpud Super-Mod to the gods Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: with Buffy, in Manchester, England... Posts: 4,732	you mean you can see it? You have to click and drag inside the grey box to reveal the text...

16th January 2002, 08:56 PM	#19 (permalink)
Annette This is Star - my honey!! Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: West Midlands Posts: 5,944	Ah thanks, sussed it now. Never thought of that Mark. About the spoiler that is. annette

17th January 2002, 05:04 AM	#20 (permalink)
obcooke OB-Wan Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,357	[MythingLink: Or would he still think this if he had to kill a Ben who could defend himself just to get to Glory?] That's the inconsistancy that bothers me. At the beginning, Xander mentions killing Ben. Now, remember, they don't know that Ben has betrayed Dawn to save himself. They consider him an innocent. The strange thing is that the idea dies without comment, except a sheepish Xander regretting even considering it. Why didn't Giles support this possiblity if he was willing to kill Dawn to prevent the ritual and pester Buffy with the idea? Why wouldn't he be even happier with killing Ben and Glory at the same time? What did they think was going to happen after they prevented the ritual? That Glory was going to thank them? They may have saved the world, but Glory would surely have killed them in a fit of rage. Sure, Giles thought that Ben would be submerged inside of Glory, but why didn't he even agree with the idea? And what about Spike? That sounds exactly like the kind of idea that Spike would readily jump on. He may not have the ability to kill Ben himself, but he certainly would have agreed with Xander on this one. It's one glaring flaw in my opinion. It just doesn't play real. [MythingLink: 1. Were the scrolls...] I think that's certainly true. [MythingLink: 2. How come no one ever noticed that huge tower being built?] Good question. Did they just happen to find that the portal opened over a construction site? Did they build the tower over a 3-day holiday weekend? Good thing there wasn't already a McDonalds or something there. Darn it, MythingLink, now you've pointed out another weak point in the story.

24th January 2002, 08:09 PM	#22 (permalink)
markpud Super-Mod to the gods Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: with Buffy, in Manchester, England... Posts: 4,732	well in S6... dawn says that the tower was build by crazy people, so it wasn't an existing construction...

25th January 2002, 12:41 PM	#23 (permalink)
MythingLink First Prime of ASciFi Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 1,798	I guess it's just one of those things we'll have to live with. Cheers,

25th January 2002, 01:19 PM	#24 (permalink)
MythingLink First Prime of ASciFi Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 1,798	This came up on one of the mailing lists I'm on ... Some people were discussing whether or not Buffy always knew that she would have to die and also that what she did was equal to committing suicide. What do you all think? Cheers,

28th January 2002, 07:22 PM	#25 (permalink)
Highlander II There can be only one!! Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 9,481	okay - finally got to see this one too - wonder if the spell Glory had on everyone to make them forget that she and Ben were the same person had any affect on seeing the tower? -- b/c by the time they were following Tara to the site, they all knew that Ben and Glory were the same -- i really like the scene where Buffy walks into her house just rambling on, telling Spike where the weapons are, and he just stops outside the door and tells her to hand them over the threshold b/c he hadn't been re-invited -- no snide remark, no snippy comment, just a line that states - 'you uninvited me, remember?' - plain, simple -- then, when she lets him in - still - nothing (okay, he cracked a tiny smile)-- he just grabs the weapons, promises to protect Dawn and tells Buffy he knows she never loved him --- very straighforward -- and the end -- so much emotion - from everyone -

15th March 2002, 05:19 PM	#27 (permalink)
Highlander II There can be only one!! Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 9,481	someone asked me about Spike fighting off 'Doc' -- and asked why he didn't 'do more' to try to break free b4 he was pushed off the tower, then said 'see, Buffy didn't have a problem' -- 1st - the real reason - dramatic effect - if Spike fails, well, it's more dramatic and Buffy can 'save the day' - (also adds some guilt factor for episodes of season 6) but - another reason could be - remember - Doc's pretty fast - he shifted around and stabbed Spike in the back - now, immortal or human - that's gonna hurt and slow you down -- so, he was then pinned w/ his arms behind his back and then thrown from the tower ---- now - that scene seemed to take several seconds to occur - but, we had reaction shots and reactions to reactions and such - it's probably meant to have taken place rather quickly, but they have to slow it down to show all the reactions (not that they 'slow-mo'd' the film, just slowed the reaction time to show everyone) -- Spike to being grabbed, Dawn's reaction to Spike being grabbed, Doc's reaction to knowing he's 'won', and Spike's reaction to knowing he's gonna be shoved over the edge -- that's a lot of reacting - and to get everything - each character needs a couple seconds --- so - my guess is that only a couple seconds passed during that little facial-expression - exchange -- then bye-bye Spike --- so - in response to the initial question -- Spike didn't have time to react ----

18th March 2002, 01:47 PM	#29 (permalink)
Annette This is Star - my honey!! Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: West Midlands Posts: 5,944	Hi H2, thanks for all these fab explanations, when I read them I think back to the episode. Only trouble being also reminds me that I cried :crying: was soooooooooo sad. annette

18th March 2002, 03:51 PM	#30 (permalink)
VAMPette To the Angel- Mobile! Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 419	I missed 'The Gift' last week but just thinking back to when I first saw it, I was so taken aback at the end. I didn't know that she was going to die or that she comes back and was just wandering around really stunned that they actually did it. The series is actually so much better if you don't know what's going to happen.