Phantom Menace

[I, Brian]

Watched Phantom Menace again this morning - and it really reminded myself of one of the big things that really irritated myself about the film.

In the original trilogy, Luke, Han, Leia, and the gang only finally defeat the Empire after various campaigns in which they tuoghed it out and suffered: in Star Wars, Luke only just made it to destroy the Death Star through sheer determination; in Empire Strikes Back they only just survived an Imperial plot, and Luke lost a hand in the process against the biggest foe in the galaxy; in Return of the Jedi it took a cunning plan and a battlefleet to engage and defeat the Empire.

Phantom Menace: Ja Ja accidentally destroys a large part of a droid army entirely by acident; little Anakin destroys a single droid control ship by accidently firing a couple of blasts that just happened to directly hit the main reactor.

Huh?

The the charcters you struggle with in the original trilogy are proceeded by characters who succeed not through sufference, skill, and personal strength - but instead by some goofy luck.

That, IMO, is a principle that completely underpins the newer trilogy - and also distances it away from the original series. It also represents a fundamental flaw that someone really should have nudged Lucas about.

[erickad71]

I would have to say that I like the original three better than the newer ones. I like the newer ones, but they seem a little more commercialized than the originals. Not as much heart and soul in them.
I was just a child when I saw the first ones so maybe that is affecting my judgement. Do you think it makes a difference how old you are when you first see a movie? Does that make sense?

[Morning Star]

I hated that scene with Anakin piloting the starfighter, in fact, there are few things I hate more. I reckon that when Anakin got older, he watched Episode I and hurled himself into that volcano out of sheer depression, then assumed a new identity in a desperate attempt to escape his ridiculous past, the Jedi Council knew...so they had to be killed, along with any other Jedi that might have heard.

Once Obi Wan was dead, the circle was complete.

[dwndrgn]

Originally Posted by erickad71

I would have to say that I like the original three better than the newer ones. I like the newer ones, but they seem a little more commercialized than the originals. Not as much heart and soul in them.
I was just a child when I saw the first ones so maybe that is affecting my judgement. Do you think it makes a difference how old you are when you first see a movie? Does that make sense?

Absolutely. Not only the age when you first saw it, but the age of the industry itself. Star Wars was a revolution of sorts for the motion picture industry so it was seen with awe and amazement in addition to the love the viewers had for the story itself. It was new and exciting. Now, not so much. So I agree with you.

[I, Brian]

Agreed - but also the fact the film-makers change is important here. In Star Wars (no, not "A New Hope" - the film is called Star Wars!) the actors apparently made important changes to the dialogue at least - Alec Guinness certainly spoke about doing so. In fact, Lucas was under lots of commercial pressures and had to work within restrictions, and be as creative as a possible to tell the story.

Nowdays, though, people have been too busy worshipping Lucas to seemingly dare criticise him - thus he lost a very important formative pressure. Add to that the fact that he's not so much concerned with telling a story - as much as trying to plug his computer games in the process.

Star Wars was an attempt to tell an epic story - a modern myth and legend - but revisiting the project seems to have made it a cash cow first, and a loose creative effort second. Which is perhaps why luck is required for Anakin to actually destroy the droid control vessel by accident (and what happened to all the other droid control vessels from the blockage and invasion shown on all the previous shots, anyway?).

[Vodstok]

I must agree with you all. I sat in mute awe and horror during my first viewing of the Phantom Menace. There were parts that were simply stunning:
The pod race was amazing. I have never seen such a tense and impressive race.

The fight between the Jedis and Darth MAul was incredible. It was impressive for the same reason the fights in the MAtrix movies were, It's just hard to believe that, even with computer assistance, that humans are capable of some of this stuff (Ray Park completely stole that movie)

but then we have pandering. JAr JAr is easily themost insultingg character i have ever seen. It has nothing to do with supposed steriotyping of Jamaicans and Dominicans with me. It's more because that CRAP was supposed to be entertaining. Really, who wanted to see a fart in a star wars movie? And jake lloyd (anakin) was a HIDEOUS actor. There arent many good child actors out there, and he certainly isnt helping the odds any.

I happen to love special effects in movies, but even i thought the newer movies relied too heavily on digital effects

[Myla Starchild]

I totally agree with you, Vodstok. Phantom Menace looked absolutely stunning - same with Attack Of The Clones. But the script was terrible, the acting was horrendous, Jar Jar was the most throttle-worthy character in any Star Wars movie ever, and I just simply wasn't the Star Wars I knew and loved. A lot that was to do with not having Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie and the gang, but...I don't know Ack!

[dwndrgn]

Originally Posted by Myla Starchild

I totally agree with you, Vodstok. Phantom Menace looked absolutely stunning - same with Attack Of The Clones. But the script was terrible, the acting was horrendous, Jar Jar was the most throttle-worthy character in any Star Wars movie ever, and I just simply wasn't the Star Wars I knew and loved. A lot that was to do with not having Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie and the gang, but...I don't know Ack!

I think the problem with the characters is that they didn't have any identity or charisma. They seemed to be like cardboard cutouts spouting lines. There were some great actors there but maybe the script just wasn't right or something...it didn't have any heart.

[Vodstok]

dwndrgn, i think you hit the nail on the head. I think the only character i cared about at all was Obi wan, and that could just be because i think Ewan McGreggor is great (i loved trainspotting. Ok, i like danny boyd too. 28 days later is a new favorite of mine)

I would hazard to say that JarJAr is one of the worst characters ever put to paper or film. Although, i do like that he is basically responsible for the creation of the evil empire.... Stupid frogman....

My hope is that if my sci-fi epic ever becomes a movie (or movies), that they will have all of the visual WOW of the star wars movies, but actually have a plot and characters that people care about.

This actually reminds me. I think one of the problems with the newer movies is that Lucas tried Too hard to find nobodies like he did in the originals. The only real "somebodies" in the originals were Sir Alec Guiness and Peter Cushing. A lot of people attribute the originals success to the relative anonymity of the main actors (in the beginning, at least). George Lucas went out of his way to find actors that he thought looked the part, and were unkown. He ended up with Jake Lloyd and Hayden Christensen. Hayden wasnt TOO bad. The writing hurt his performance (he never really hadf a chance with the lines that were given to him), but Lloyd was just bad. I dont care if he is just a kid. Look at Daviegh Chase in the Ring. That kid is incredible.

[erickad71]

dwndrgn you're right, they have no heart or soul.
and they could have been so wonderful.

[I, Brian]

I really wanted to like Ewan MacGregor in the prequels, but something about his character always seemed so stilted, so formal. A lot of the time characters seemed to be reading lines then actually acting in any way - but on that account, I hear that George Lucas is pretty bad at coaching actors, whereas other directors will work really hard with the actors to ensure they get the best out of them. In fact, I'm sure I saw Ewen MacGregor mention something about how hard it was to act in the films, as Lucas effectively just stands them on a blue screen, then tells them to walk left and say their lines - Ewen effectively commenting that he was constantly looking for direction, and not getting what he needed to be comfortable in the role. I guess that's a big part of the problem - that Lucas is such a visual person - that he needs a helping hand to develop proper character elements. Alec Guiness implied the original Star Wars cast did that for and with him - but by the time of production of Phantom Menace there were perhaps too many people worshipping Lucas, rather than providing the guiding force required.

[Morning Star]

I'm sure others will argue with me, but I think the main problem was Lucas being so involved with the direction/production of the film. I mean, don't get me wrong, the man is a visionary, a story teller with real passion, but as a director...he seems to be lacking. The first Star Wars is an all time classic, sure, but it's nothing like Phantom Menace, it was a more serious kind of film, with a few light shades of American Graffiti in it.

However, Empire and Jedi (bar ewoks for some) are what really sealed the deal and made the star wars universe into one of epic proportions. These were handled by different directors though, I probably sound like im babbling, but I wish Lucas could have given the reins to someone else, I mean I can understand directing Phantom Menace, but the second film? I just don't know if a third film in a trilogy can be so good, as to make up for the first 2.

[I, Brian]

No, I know exactly what you mean - I have friends in media production who think Lucas is a terrible director. I actually thought Star Wars was pretty well directed in itself, but I don't know much about the technicalities of directing.

Still, it is a good point raised - that Lucas was trying to do too much, and that made it messy.

[Morning Star]

I know...thats why I'm confused. I think Star Wars was Lucas' greatest solo work and he keeps trying to outdo it and himself and venturing into unfamiliar territory. I mean, the man had a limited budget and got turned down by universal studios when he approached them, yet despite all odds he made a film that has become a part of modern culture.

It's also odd because when I saw the trailer for Phantom Menace, I was excited, I remember gungan warriors riding slowly out of the mists on their steeds, A beautiful yet sad woman of some statesmanship or power, the dark robes of a Sith Lord. Those few second shots looked great...I think something got lost in the translation though.

[Bones]

The Phantom menace was hugely dissapointing (unless under 10 years old) and vastly inferior IMO.


Whereas the original trilogy (and indeed Attack of the clones which took it back into the right direction) stretched across the age span, the phantom menace seemed to just want to fill the audiences and sell out to the little kiddies.

The plot could've been developed ALOT better really, i mean it's dealing with the future darth vader for christ's sake! Instead it was instead poorly handled and a bit of a light and effects show for the kids.

It was Obi-wan and Jinn that were focal here. Mister ooh scary darth sideous really - wasn't, and the whole thing could've been written alot better.