What's with all the braid-pulling?

[Tsujigiri]

Yes, I must admit everytime one of his characters does soemthing irritating I tend to come out of the story. Last time I came out of the story I never went back....

[Heidi]

Did you happen to miss him cleansing Saidin? I think we have to learn more about Perrin and Mat before the Last Battle comes. They both have to be there, and somehow Moiraine has to come back, along with many other other small things. If the book were about Rand,it would be called the Dragon Reborn series, not the Wheel of Time series. And Mat is my favorite male character as well. But Egwene is my fav female char.

[mojo12]

I agree with PenDragon regarding the fact that "his technique is showing."
I have also begun to have some reservations regarding Jordan's personal viewpoint of women.
i.e. Women are stronger than men and wield the true power, but all the "girls" are weak whiny hangers on that can't stop infighting long enough to get the job done.
And the constant abuse that the Aes Sedai, Wise Women and Windfinders take such demented pleasure in inflicting on each other (depending who is on top, and yes, that IS an intentional double entendre). To say nothing of the Seanchan version!
Well it's all kind of wierd, isn't it? It's like he goes out of his way to point out that no matter how diverse their particular cultures may be; women and their relationships to each other are always the same!
Well, no; he DOES let the Warrior woman, the Amrlyn Seat, the Queen and the seer SHARE Rand, doesn't he?
Does anyone know a bunch of beautiful "type A personality" women that are willing to "share" a man cheerfully? (If so I'd like to meet them )
S*I*G*H
It is a Fantasy, I guess.
Of course in the newest book Rand gets a "new" Mommy figure to slap him around because he's A VERY BAD BOY!!!
Now Apologize!
I'm going to stand here with my arms crossed beneath my breasts until you do!!!!

[osms123]

MOJO 12 that was funny but honestly ya'll are thinkin about how often the "ticks" show. Honestly if you observe someone they would do something EVERY time that s/he gets nervous or angry. Nynaeve is ALWAYS angry about something so she will always pull her hair. About the other charecters i think Jordan has a frequent habit of catching his charecters at a "worse" mood so they will always be showing their "ticks".

[Shoegaze99]

Originally Posted by osms123

i think Jordan has a frequent habit of catching his charecters at a "worse" mood so they will always be showing their "ticks".

Robert Jordan isn't chronicling history, he's making up a story. He's not "catching" anybody at anything. These people are fiction. He decides what will and will not reach the page. That reader continues to get the same kind of moments with the same kind of reactions and the same kind of descriptions again and again is attributable to only one person: Robert Jordan. Quite frankly, if he's incapable of imparting old information in a new way, that speaks volumes about his ability as a writer.

[flummoxed]

knivesout
I've always been rather fond of Aviendha too, especially when she stood up for Mat and made the other girls apologise to him! No prizes for guessing who my favourite male character in WoT is!

Well, I guess you've both answered my question. The characters do make sense to you, and it's probably more a guy thing that I get a bit put off?

i guess one has to sign away the first born kid to post on any internet site in these days of modern practicality. i remember when it wasn't so.

i joined this one because it looked to be a forum in which one could critique jordan negatively, even if not trashing him. all of the jordan brown-nosing sites react as if you were crucifying Jesus Christ again if you step outside of the twilight zone world of their fantasy and speak realistically. they feel affronted and ban you from their - i won't mention names - silly sites. i don't believe i will break any codes of conduct with this post by merely speaking my mind. hopefully, this is a more adult site and none will feel i am trying to pull their world out from under them.

though i do enjoy the story - damn, it has been a long 12 years - there are things i have to agree with all around.

first, mat and aviendha are my favorites. i would have liked to run into a woman matching her physical description when i was in the marrying age. i did have a fiery red headed girlfriend that would do the aiel proud but that one ran me off as if she carried spears.

mat is a typical guy's guy, a guy you want to hang out with just to BS with as long as he is in his element and away from nagging women.

which brings me around to the shocker that almost killed all of the EMO kids...i don't think a man is writing this story. the main pretense is supposed to be a huge war to settle the end of the world. 11 books of interpersonal relationships, most between women, was well written but the content wore thin. how many braids can be tugged and how many dresses need to be straightened? how many men can one belittle to put a point across? how many scenes of physical discipline(ala anne rice) are necessary to tell a story of armageddon?

the author did a commendable job of slowing down the pace at times to the point i thought i was eating with them or playing stones. i think i drank spiced wine along the way and rode a few horses. the author, whom i contend is a woman, did a marvelous job of what becomes playwriting, as it is directed at a theater stage at some points.

louisa may alcott would be proud of this extended version of "little women" though it may grow long in the tooth for her. i raise her name as i don't believe a man can fathom the intricacies that take place in a strictly female world. the "love scenes" are purely nora roberts and some not that forward as our young heroines are uptight, prim and proper victorian prudes for the most part. put them alone with the ruffians they pine over and what randy vixens they become.

in some fashions, this story has become a literary version of the screenplay for the 1997 film "titanic" - a love story that just happened to collide with a sinking ship. the WOT battle scenes are so few and far apart one forgets what the subject matter is as the buying of silk for dresses, how many to a bed, discussion/disgust of local fashions, mealtimes and snipping at each other is the substance of the story. i will point anyone to elizabeth moon's "the deed of paksenarion" for a book that can cover the full gamet. that is actually three novels pulled together as one just as "the lord of the rings" books have been. it reads easy in that manner.

it has been written that jordan's wife harriet is his editor. i see it the other way around and they make a good team though they milk it for all its worth. how long has "his" illness truly been a factor in the writing of these books? i don't mean any harm to mention that but it is reality. i hope jordan a speedy recovery as i know what it is to be ill.

[Somebloke]

More importantly...how many women are going to be switched before the last battle.

Seriously- in every single book a woman gets beaten, humiliated, or used, or all three. For a series about strong women RJ sure does seem to reach for the whipping stick an awful lot.

[Talysia]

For all the bad things that keep happening in the books, you have to wonder whether there will be a good ending for any of them. As for braid-pulling, well, it makes it interesting for characters to have these little quirks. It's a talking point - another dimension to the story - if nothing else.

[the_faery_queen]

i don't think jordan's women are strong. i think jordan has confused the idea of loud and bossy with strong.
jordan has women issues, in my mind. i mean, they're 'powerful' with their magic, but never as powerful as any man, despite the fact that the magic is meant to be equal, male and female halves of the source thing, should be equal, yet the men are always stronger.
the women always end up submitting to their men and letting them spank them! seriously, what is up with that. firstly, why would any man who really loved and respected his wife think he had a right to discpline her like a child, (spank for fun, ok, but to punish her? husbands/lovers shouldn't punish their other half, you're meant to be equal) and second, why would any woman let him! especially if she thought he was a woolhead, and not as good as a woman, which the women all seem tot hink, that they're better than the men. and yes, there are all the switchings, between themselves.
and all the times the women get naked, while the men can wear clothes
and all three women agreeing to share rand. there's jsut something wrong with these women. they think men are weak, yet let them control them. they're meant to be equal in magic, yet i dont' think any of them actually are, they're all weaker than men. basically they just have the illision of being strong women, when really they're bossy haridans. i dunno how any guy could fancy any of them. but then, im not sure how any woman could fancy any of the guys, they're fairly weak too!

i hace mentioned all of this in another topic though, im sure!
and what does make me laugh, still, is the interivew i read where jordan says that he listened in on women's conversations, to see what they were like and how they behave. but he didnt seem to relaise that how women are in groups isn't how they are with men, mixed groups, their kids. people are different with different people

personally, i dn't mind the hair pulling. it is a trait. it doesnt' make the character any deeper, but it's a trait and people do have them. it's everythingt else that put me off reading the series again.

[Revelation]

Jordan is messed up when it comes to women.

First of all, his wife helps him write WoT.

Second of all, there was an interview where he was asked who would he choose to have dinner with, if it could be anyone in the world, living or dead.

Who did he choose? Dostoyevsky? No. Ghandi? No. Da Vinci? Jesus? Lincoln? Julius Caesar? Napoleon? Tolkien? Mozart? Einstein?

He chose his wife. That's right folks, he chose the person he spends most of his daylight hours with over the greatest people in history of the world and can have dinner with 15 times a day.

What does that tell YOU about Jordan?

Personally, I think they are in a Perrin/Faile type of relationship, and this certainly comes through in his books.

[The Pelagic Argosy]

Originally Posted by the_faery_queen

the women always end up submitting to their men and letting them spank them! seriously, what is up with that. firstly, why would any man who really loved and respected his wife think he had a right to discpline her like a child, (spank for fun, ok, but to punish her? husbands/lovers shouldn't punish their other half, you're meant to be equal) and second, why would any woman let him! especially if she thought he was a woolhead, and not as good as a woman, which the women all seem tot hink, that they're better than the men. and yes, there are all the switchings, between themselves.
and all the times the women get naked, while the men can wear clothes
and all three women agreeing to share rand.

OMG that's terrible! What were those page numbers again?

But seriously. I just finished the first book in the series. Perhaps the characterization problems change or grow more pronounced as the series progresses (or doesn't progress, if I'm inferring correctly.)

Personally, if I was going to be offended by Jordan's characterizations, it would be as a country bumpkin, not as a women. The male characters annoy me as much as the female ones. For every time Nynaeve acts like she needs a Mydol, Rand is blushing "Aw shucks" in Egwene's general direction, or Mat is inappropriately shooting off an arrow or talking too loudly. If I read the phrase "Blood and Ashes!" one more time, I'll need a Mydol myself.

As someone else mentioned, Jordan seems to portray all his rural farmer village characters (most of whom are also young) as naive, kvetching brats. While the more mature, worldly characters like Moraine and Lan are too stoic.

I think the problem is more broadly related to Jordan's general problem of over describing. (Has anyone else noticed this? ) The grating character habits are less irritating to me than the sinking feeling I get when I realize Jordan is about to use the next 1,000 words to describe a street corner.

But I am also planning to continue the series. Maybe Jordan over describes, but you can't complain that his descriptions aren't vivid and immersing. I guess it's a double-edged sword. A double-edged Heron mark sword...the sun, which was just cresting the tops of the distant trees, glinted on it's hilt. The air, although it may have been an illusion, seemed warmer today.

GAHHH!!! Make it stop!!!

[JagLover]

The basic problem is that Jordan thinks he is potraying 'strong' women when in fact most of them (despite being centuries old in some cases) seem more like bitching high school girls.

The only strong female character vanishes at about the same time the WOT stops being a great fantasy series.

I don't remember a single instance of Moiraine "Sniffing" "folding her arms under her breasts" "tugging her braid" and getting involved in catfights on the slightest pretext.

[Diana Levin]

I have been really annoyed with the female characters so far and could not relate to any of them. But in the last couple of books I have seen Egwene come around and become a more well rounded so I have hopes that by the end of the series I will grow to like her, at least.

[Gumboot]

His woeful character writing was one of the major reasons I gave up on the series. Both the women and men are terribly written, though the women are nauseatingly bad. It quite simply boggles my mind that he's the best-selling fantasy writer of all time.