Lets sort these Gods out then... - Science Fiction Fantasy Chronicles: forums

PTeppic · 1st July 2001, 04:20 AM

So, we have an ongoing series (SG1) based on "genuine" earth mythology. So - which of the mainstream Egyptian deities have we now seen?

Anyone comment on the following?

Apep=Apophis - definitely
Atum=Ra/Re - definitely
Hathor - definitely
Horus=Heru'ur - definitely
Isis - is this the same as Hathor?
Nephthys - not yet
Osiris - is this the same as Atum/Re/Ra? Doesn't SEEM to be...
Qebehsenuef - whoa, a son to Heru'ur - could be good, and not yet
Seth/Seti - definitely
Sokar - definitely
Thoth - is Thoth a deity? Certainly room for a plot, anyway!

adele.s · 1st July 2001, 11:40 PM

It is crucial to understand that the mythology of ancient Egypt was based on a fragmented tribal underpining... the length of the Nile Valley and the diverse settlements along it have the effect, starting even before the pre-Dynastic period, of generating a diverse and sometimes conflicting pantheon of gods and goddesses, who were sometimes merged or redefined over time. Upper and Lower Egypt were at times significantly different religious spheres. Different cults sprang up in various places and merged and divided multiple times. The Pyramid texts, the Book of the Dead, various coffin texts and monument inscriptions don't all agree or resolve into a single organized group of deities...

That said... I've been researching a lot of this lately for another fanfic (yes, I know I'm going overboard on this, deal with it!) and my rapidly growing collection of books about ancient cultures say:

Re was primarily a creator-god and sun-god, worshipped from about 3000BC to about 400AD in various parts of Egypt, including Abydos. Toward Dynasty V, he was combined with Osiris to become the Re-by-day, Osiris-by-night father figure of the rulers of that dynasty, imparting authority by paternity of the line.

Atum was originally an independent entity, a creator god merged rather early with Re.

Osiris, prior to Dynasty V anyway, had a cult exclusively his own. He was a grain-god as well as the god of the underworld. His worship can also be reliably traced back to about 3000BC in various parts of Egypt. According to the geneaology drawn up by the priests at Heliopolis, Osiris was born of Geb and Nut, and he had three younger siblings: his consort Isis, his adversary Seth, and younger sister Nepthys. Osiris was integral to the Egyptian kingship: the pharoahs were the embodiment of Horus while alive, Osiris after death.

Isis is best known for putting Osiris back together again after Seth tricks him into a trap and dismembers him. Isis concieves Horus, the hawk, after the death of Osiris and after she has reanimated him. She is a mother-goddess who protected the kings of Egypt during their childhood, as they are Horus embodied. Her hawk-goddess cult spread across Egypt and beyond (there are frescoes of she and Horus which are done in the same style and with similar iconography to early Mary and Jesus frescoes), but major centers included Giza and Abydos.

Hathor is another mother-goddess and the cow goddess of love sexuality and dance. Her worship was centered in Dendera. Her father is given as the sun god Re, and she is described as the mother of all pharoahs. Over time, she was given as the mother of Horus, then as a protector of him, as well as his consort.

The legend of Hathor being sent to destroy humankind on Re's order is called "the eye of Re", and in it she becomes Sahkmet or Sekmet, the lion-goddess who is embodied by the burning, consuming rays of the midday sun. There are at least two versions of the legend, but both involve Re stopping the destruction by pouring out a mixture of beer and pomegranite juice upon the delta. In one version, she thinks this red liquid is humanity's blood and becomes horrified with her actions, the other version has her drinking it until she passes out from her own bloodthirsty and drunken behavior. In both she reverts from Sekmet to Hathor afterwards.

From the Book of the Dead (I'm using the Faulkner version, since Daniel Jackson's comment in the Stargate movie that the blackboard translation using Budge's books was so wrong...):

Apep is given as the serpent-demon, arch-enemy of Re.

Seth, god of storms and the desert, is the brother and murderer of Osiris, the rival of Horus, and the guardian of Re against Apep.

The Sacred Eye of Horus was torn out by Seth, and restored by Thoth, and is symbolic of everything good.

Thoth is the moon god of wisdom and learning, and scribe to the gods listed in the Heliopolis pantheon, also sometimes attributed as the god who taught man to write heiroglyphics. He is a mediator between Seth and Horus. In some of my references he is given as a son of Re, in others he was born from the head of Seth.

Sokar is the falcon-headed god of the dead according to the Book of the Dead, and is often combined with Ptah, the creator-god of Memphis.

Qebehsenuef is one of the four Sons of Horus, who are often associated with the four compass directions or winds. The other three were Mesti, Hapi, and Tuamutef. After the 18th Dynasty, the heads of the four were carved on each of four canopic jars, vessels used to house particular organs as part of the mummification process.

Sigh.

I've only seen the first season(thank goodness for DVDs!), so I can't really comment on any of the SG-1 representations other than Apothis (who sounds like Apep to me, although there were a lot of serpent-related gods and goddesses at various times), Ra (close enough to Re, right?), and Hathor (who was a pretty clear reference in the show!).

Hope this helps...
-- Adele

PTeppic · 2nd July 2001, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by adele.s
From the Book of the Dead (I'm using the Faulkner version, since Daniel Jackson's comment in the Stargate movie that the blackboard translation using Budge's books was so wrong...):

Hurrah - I have just received the same book (2000 paperback impression) and it was that which prompted my questions... I sort of reached most of your statements/conclusions, but Isis/hathor in particular was unclear.

Quote:

Originally posted by adele.s

I've only seen the first season(thank goodness for DVDs!), so I can't really comment on any of the SG-1 representations other than Apothis (who sounds like Apep to me, although there were a lot of serpent-related gods and goddesses at various times), Ra (close enough to Re, right?), and Hathor (who was a pretty clear reference in the show!).

I think they may be wrong in the show - I need to re-watch "Hathor" but I think they compare her to Ishtar and various others love goddesses, who perhaps should only be compared to Isis. Daniel in particular seems to havbe half a dozen pseudonyms for most of the deities!

adele.s · 2nd July 2001, 02:42 AM

Most of what I've read that compares the love goddesses in various cultures to each other are comparing *archetypes*, not actual individuals. In that frame of mind, it is perfectly reasonable to say that all corn-goddesses with power over the summer growing season and harvest, for instance, are actually different manifestations of the same person or concept, no matter which culture, time period, or location they were worshipped in.

On top of that, ideas are passed in varying forms from one culture to later ones (it's like the children's game 'telephone' where one person whispers something to their neighbor and that person passes it along around the circle and then when it gets back to the first child the entire message has changed!). And religious ideas travel along trade routes between contemporaneous cultures.

The standard pantheons that get taught to most of us in school from the various cultures are a simplified version of a very time- and location- dependent religious history. The Aphrodite at the dawn of the Greek city-states was quite different from the Aphrodite which the Romans merged with their Venus.

Carter specifically mentions Aphrodite, Istar, Astarte, and Ceres, from what I remember. I think Ceres is the only one which might be a marginal match... Ceres specialities were more comparable to Demeter, not Aphrodite, from what I can tell.

Have you read _Egypt, Myths and Legends_ by Lewis Spence? I've found it easier to read in small bits and pieces rather than all at once, it's kind of heavy reading.

A much easier quick reference is _Encyclopedia of Gods_ by Michael Jordan, but it gives very brief overviews and is handy mostly because once you've read the blurbs in it, you can figure out what other references you should be looking for.
-- Adele

PTeppic · 2nd July 2001, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by adele.s
Apep is given as the serpent-demon, arch-enemy of Re.

Thinking about it (in the shower of all places) I now recall that Daniel says in COTG, after seeing Apophis for the first time, and recalling the death of "Ra" in the movie (i.e. first mission), that

"that wasn't Ra - it was Apophis. Ra was the sun-god who ruled the day; Apophis was his brother, the serpent-god who ruled the night" (quoted from memory)

Which ties in with Apep/Ra-Osiris myth, but sort of clashes with the Ra-Osiris dichotomy!

NB. You are going to love Sokar... eventually (mid 3rd series)

evileven · 14th August 2001, 03:29 PM

hello, as you've probably guessed i haven't been in the forum for a while, so i was getting updated and thought i would give you my view on your post, i think these are right, but there is a chance they might not be :

isis isnt the same as hathor - she is the sister and wife of Osiris, mother of Horus and is a protective goddess

nephthys - unimportant, is wife of Seth

Osiris - lives in the heart and soul of humans, before going to underworld people were judged at the court of Osiris

thoth - an early rival of Ra, is the inventor of writing, language and magic - good room for a plot!

hope this helps :rolly2:
evileven

kelsi · 19th August 2001, 10:29 AM

Just to give my opinion...

Quote:

Originally posted by evileven
isis isnt the same as hathor - she is the sister and wife of Osiris, mother of Horus and is a protective goddess

In terms of SG: she was in S4, which differentiates her from Hathor, S1 (hope that doesn't count as a spoiler!!

In terms of mythology, in early mythology, at leats in Dendera which was a major cult centre of Hathor, SHE was the original mother of Horus, but cities like Thebes, Memphis, because of the whole Hathor-wiping-out-mankind, and because Isis was more popular, Horus bacame son of Isis and Osiris.

About the other Ra/Apophis thing, I was doing some reading yestersay, and found out that Neith is, in at least one myth, the mother of Ra. And she's much better known for being the mother of Apophis... which make them brothers, which seems to be gr8 symbology, among other things...

PTeppic · 19th August 2001, 12:24 PM

I think one big problem for us today is the concept that religion changes, as it does/did for the Egyptians.

The major religions of today are all basically fixed, with books detailing the history and philosophy etc.

Back then, it seems that almost every major town had its own variant, even at the same period, yet with different periods, the stories and religions also changed, merged, diversified etc.

kelsi · 19th August 2001, 02:07 PM

True. What other cultures had so many gods though? I know the Aztecs did, and I guess the Greeks/Romans. Is it just *all* ancient cultures?

adele.s · 20th August 2001, 10:01 PM

I think we see religion as fixed in time because we only see short segments of time. It's a consequence of human perspective. It's not just ancient cultures, it's human culture.

For instance, Christianity may mean one thing now (although there are bunches and bunches of different flavors across the globe and around the corner) but it did not mean exactly the same thing 500, 1000, 1500, 2000 years ago... around 2000 years ago Christianity was a minority movement within Judaism! And any specific local church has ways of celebrating certain days and festivals and such that change over time, depending on the parishoners and the minister or elders of the group at any given time.
-- Adele

PTeppic · 21st August 2001, 03:20 AM

Under the same example, in the UK in the 12th century (for example), the Christian church was heavily observed by pretty much all people (unless Jewish - those who escaped perseuction, anyway). Compare that with 800 years later, and although X% are nominally of the same religion, it has changed major emphasis (protestant) and in practice the % of followers has dropped significantly, whilst other religions (name most of them) have filled the gaps with practicing followers.

Same country though - and perhaps we still have problems understanding the changing nature of ancient religions which in fairness also take place over almost 3000 years, way longer than we can really comprehend for a single civilisation.

kelsi · 21st August 2001, 05:38 PM

And then theres the whole Christianity is largly based on Ancient Egyptian mythology... I find it very interesting! I love picking holes in the Christian faith (sorry to any Christians), but generally, I'm more into ancient religions.

PTeppic · 21st August 2001, 06:02 PM

I hadn't seen any information on that refernece, but David Rohl's "Legends" investigates the earliest biblical references and the similarity (and/oror equality) to Sumerian legends and religions.

kelsi · 25th August 2001, 06:54 AM

Hehe, they should try that with Egyptian mythology as well!

Falcon Horus · 14th August 2002, 12:07 PM

First,

Quote:

And then theres the whole Christianity is largly based on Ancient Egyptian mythology... I find it very interesting! I love picking holes in the Christian faith (sorry to any Christians), but generally, I'm more into ancient religions.
By Kelsi

I do the same thing, Kelsi, and my Dad hates me doing it. Hehe!!

And second,

I don't want to be picky (sp?) but Horus is not Heru'ur. Horus is the son of Osiris and Isis. Heru'ur means Horus the Elder and I'm not exactly sure who he is but I think he's a son of Amon-Ra.

Falcon Horus

1st July 2001, 04:20 AM	#1 (permalink)
PTeppic Reetou Diplomatic Corp Join Date: May 2001 Location: North-west UK Posts: 3,073	Lets sort these Gods out then... So, we have an ongoing series (SG1) based on "genuine" earth mythology. So - which of the mainstream Egyptian deities have we now seen? Anyone comment on the following? Apep=Apophis - definitely Atum=Ra/Re - definitely Hathor - definitely Horus=Heru'ur - definitely Isis - is this the same as Hathor? Nephthys - not yet Osiris - is this the same as Atum/Re/Ra? Doesn't SEEM to be... Qebehsenuef - whoa, a son to Heru'ur - could be good, and not yet Seth/Seti - definitely Sokar - definitely Thoth - is Thoth a deity? Certainly room for a plot, anyway!

1st July 2001, 11:40 PM	#2 (permalink)
adele.s Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 68	You say Ra, I say Re... let's call the whole thing a mess? It is crucial to understand that the mythology of ancient Egypt was based on a fragmented tribal underpining... the length of the Nile Valley and the diverse settlements along it have the effect, starting even before the pre-Dynastic period, of generating a diverse and sometimes conflicting pantheon of gods and goddesses, who were sometimes merged or redefined over time. Upper and Lower Egypt were at times significantly different religious spheres. Different cults sprang up in various places and merged and divided multiple times. The Pyramid texts, the Book of the Dead, various coffin texts and monument inscriptions don't all agree or resolve into a single organized group of deities... That said... I've been researching a lot of this lately for another fanfic (yes, I know I'm going overboard on this, deal with it!) and my rapidly growing collection of books about ancient cultures say: Re was primarily a creator-god and sun-god, worshipped from about 3000BC to about 400AD in various parts of Egypt, including Abydos. Toward Dynasty V, he was combined with Osiris to become the Re-by-day, Osiris-by-night father figure of the rulers of that dynasty, imparting authority by paternity of the line. Atum was originally an independent entity, a creator god merged rather early with Re. Osiris, prior to Dynasty V anyway, had a cult exclusively his own. He was a grain-god as well as the god of the underworld. His worship can also be reliably traced back to about 3000BC in various parts of Egypt. According to the geneaology drawn up by the priests at Heliopolis, Osiris was born of Geb and Nut, and he had three younger siblings: his consort Isis, his adversary Seth, and younger sister Nepthys. Osiris was integral to the Egyptian kingship: the pharoahs were the embodiment of Horus while alive, Osiris after death. Isis is best known for putting Osiris back together again after Seth tricks him into a trap and dismembers him. Isis concieves Horus, the hawk, after the death of Osiris and after she has reanimated him. She is a mother-goddess who protected the kings of Egypt during their childhood, as they are Horus embodied. Her hawk-goddess cult spread across Egypt and beyond (there are frescoes of she and Horus which are done in the same style and with similar iconography to early Mary and Jesus frescoes), but major centers included Giza and Abydos. Hathor is another mother-goddess and the cow goddess of love sexuality and dance. Her worship was centered in Dendera. Her father is given as the sun god Re, and she is described as the mother of all pharoahs. Over time, she was given as the mother of Horus, then as a protector of him, as well as his consort. The legend of Hathor being sent to destroy humankind on Re's order is called "the eye of Re", and in it she becomes Sahkmet or Sekmet, the lion-goddess who is embodied by the burning, consuming rays of the midday sun. There are at least two versions of the legend, but both involve Re stopping the destruction by pouring out a mixture of beer and pomegranite juice upon the delta. In one version, she thinks this red liquid is humanity's blood and becomes horrified with her actions, the other version has her drinking it until she passes out from her own bloodthirsty and drunken behavior. In both she reverts from Sekmet to Hathor afterwards. From the Book of the Dead (I'm using the Faulkner version, since Daniel Jackson's comment in the Stargate movie that the blackboard translation using Budge's books was so wrong...): Apep is given as the serpent-demon, arch-enemy of Re. Seth, god of storms and the desert, is the brother and murderer of Osiris, the rival of Horus, and the guardian of Re against Apep. The Sacred Eye of Horus was torn out by Seth, and restored by Thoth, and is symbolic of everything good. Thoth is the moon god of wisdom and learning, and scribe to the gods listed in the Heliopolis pantheon, also sometimes attributed as the god who taught man to write heiroglyphics. He is a mediator between Seth and Horus. In some of my references he is given as a son of Re, in others he was born from the head of Seth. Sokar is the falcon-headed god of the dead according to the Book of the Dead, and is often combined with Ptah, the creator-god of Memphis. Qebehsenuef is one of the four Sons of Horus, who are often associated with the four compass directions or winds. The other three were Mesti, Hapi, and Tuamutef. After the 18th Dynasty, the heads of the four were carved on each of four canopic jars, vessels used to house particular organs as part of the mummification process. Sigh. I've only seen the first season(thank goodness for DVDs!), so I can't really comment on any of the SG-1 representations other than Apothis (who sounds like Apep to me, although there were a lot of serpent-related gods and goddesses at various times), Ra (close enough to Re, right?), and Hathor (who was a pretty clear reference in the show!). Hope this helps... -- Adele

2nd July 2001, 02:42 AM	#4 (permalink)
adele.s Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 68	Yup! Most of what I've read that compares the love goddesses in various cultures to each other are comparing archetypes, not actual individuals. In that frame of mind, it is perfectly reasonable to say that all corn-goddesses with power over the summer growing season and harvest, for instance, are actually different manifestations of the same person or concept, no matter which culture, time period, or location they were worshipped in. On top of that, ideas are passed in varying forms from one culture to later ones (it's like the children's game 'telephone' where one person whispers something to their neighbor and that person passes it along around the circle and then when it gets back to the first child the entire message has changed!). And religious ideas travel along trade routes between contemporaneous cultures. The standard pantheons that get taught to most of us in school from the various cultures are a simplified version of a very time- and location- dependent religious history. The Aphrodite at the dawn of the Greek city-states was quite different from the Aphrodite which the Romans merged with their Venus. Carter specifically mentions Aphrodite, Istar, Astarte, and Ceres, from what I remember. I think Ceres is the only one which might be a marginal match... Ceres specialities were more comparable to Demeter, not Aphrodite, from what I can tell. Have you read _Egypt, Myths and Legends_ by Lewis Spence? I've found it easier to read in small bits and pieces rather than all at once, it's kind of heavy reading. A much easier quick reference is _Encyclopedia of Gods_ by Michael Jordan, but it gives very brief overviews and is handy mostly because once you've read the blurbs in it, you can figure out what other references you should be looking for. -- Adele

14th August 2001, 03:29 PM	#6 (permalink)
evileven Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 7	definite possibilites hello, as you've probably guessed i haven't been in the forum for a while, so i was getting updated and thought i would give you my view on your post, i think these are right, but there is a chance they might not be : isis isnt the same as hathor - she is the sister and wife of Osiris, mother of Horus and is a protective goddess nephthys - unimportant, is wife of Seth Osiris - lives in the heart and soul of humans, before going to underworld people were judged at the court of Osiris thoth - an early rival of Ra, is the inventor of writing, language and magic - good room for a plot! hope this helps :rolly2: evileven

20th August 2001, 10:01 PM	#10 (permalink)
adele.s Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 68	Hmmm... I think we see religion as fixed in time because we only see short segments of time. It's a consequence of human perspective. It's not just ancient cultures, it's human culture. For instance, Christianity may mean one thing now (although there are bunches and bunches of different flavors across the globe and around the corner) but it did not mean exactly the same thing 500, 1000, 1500, 2000 years ago... around 2000 years ago Christianity was a minority movement within Judaism! And any specific local church has ways of celebrating certain days and festivals and such that change over time, depending on the parishoners and the minister or elders of the group at any given time. -- Adele

19th August 2001, 12:24 PM	#8 (permalink)
PTeppic Reetou Diplomatic Corp Join Date: May 2001 Location: North-west UK Posts: 3,073	I think one big problem for us today is the concept that religion changes, as it does/did for the Egyptians. The major religions of today are all basically fixed, with books detailing the history and philosophy etc. Back then, it seems that almost every major town had its own variant, even at the same period, yet with different periods, the stories and religions also changed, merged, diversified etc.

19th August 2001, 02:07 PM	#9 (permalink)
kelsi Expert Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Sitting in front of my computer, at home, on Chulak. Posts: 1,411	True. What other cultures had so many gods though? I know the Aztecs did, and I guess the Greeks/Romans. Is it just all ancient cultures?

21st August 2001, 03:20 AM	#11 (permalink)
PTeppic Reetou Diplomatic Corp Join Date: May 2001 Location: North-west UK Posts: 3,073	Under the same example, in the UK in the 12th century (for example), the Christian church was heavily observed by pretty much all people (unless Jewish - those who escaped perseuction, anyway). Compare that with 800 years later, and although X% are nominally of the same religion, it has changed major emphasis (protestant) and in practice the % of followers has dropped significantly, whilst other religions (name most of them) have filled the gaps with practicing followers. Same country though - and perhaps we still have problems understanding the changing nature of ancient religions which in fairness also take place over almost 3000 years, way longer than we can really comprehend for a single civilisation.

21st August 2001, 05:38 PM	#12 (permalink)
kelsi Expert Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Sitting in front of my computer, at home, on Chulak. Posts: 1,411	And then theres the whole Christianity is largly based on Ancient Egyptian mythology... I find it very interesting! I love picking holes in the Christian faith (sorry to any Christians), but generally, I'm more into ancient religions.

21st August 2001, 06:02 PM	#13 (permalink)
PTeppic Reetou Diplomatic Corp Join Date: May 2001 Location: North-west UK Posts: 3,073	I hadn't seen any information on that refernece, but David Rohl's "Legends" investigates the earliest biblical references and the similarity (and/oror equality) to Sumerian legends and religions.

25th August 2001, 06:54 AM	#14 (permalink)
kelsi Expert Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Sitting in front of my computer, at home, on Chulak. Posts: 1,411	Hehe, they should try that with Egyptian mythology as well!