Lets sort these Gods out then... - Page 2 - Science Fiction Fantasy Chronicles: forums

kelsi · 22nd August 2002, 12:48 PM

Falcon Horus - thing is, I tend to just sit and rant, instead of actually finding evidence.

Can you find any info on Heru'Ur and how he differs from Horus?

kelsi · 22nd August 2002, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PTeppic
Apep=Apophis - definitely
Atum=Ra/Re - definitely
Hathor - definitely
Horus=Heru'ur - definitely
Isis - is this the same as Hathor?
Nephthys - not yet
Osiris - is this the same as Atum/Re/Ra? Doesn't SEEM to be...
Qebehsenuef - whoa, a son to Heru'ur - could be good, and not yet
Seth/Seti - definitely
Sokar - definitely
Thoth - is Thoth a deity? Certainly room for a plot, anyway!

We've encountered some more too now:
Anubis
Amonet
Bastet
- is all I found from a quick look at Gateworld.

webmouse · 22nd August 2002, 11:46 PM

Finally, Bastet gets a mention!

My cat Bastet (who is the true goddess of love and beauty and pleasure -- very big on pleasure) has been nagging me for ages about being left out of the show. Just couldn't understand why that cow-girl Hathor gets all the attention! Well, that's a cat for you.

Now, where are Nut, Maat, Sakmet, Sobek, and Min? (No, I don't have THAT many cats!)

As for Christianity's ancient underpinnings -- the god dying and rising from the dead was really old news by the time Jesus showed up. Osiris, Dionysis, Tamuz -- been there, done that. :evil:

Falcon Horus · 23rd August 2002, 08:56 AM

"Also known as Horus the Elder, Heru'ur is purported to be the offspring of Ra and Hathor. However, if that were true, he would be Harsesis and therefore able to use the combined knowledge of the Goa'uld against others to become the dominant power in the universe. More likely to be the adopted son of Ra, Heru'ur has tried to steal the son of Apophis and Ammonet/Sha're in order to obtain the all-important information carried within the boy."

This the explanation they use in the show. (my source for this: Stargate SG-1, The Illustrated Companion Season 3 and 4)

"Her-wer (Har-wer; G/R Haroeris) - "Great Heru/Heru the Elder" Heru in His most abstract, "original" form is known as a hawk, primarily a divinity of sky, even on Predynastic pottery and other objects. The hawk of Her-wer came to be associated with the kingship and was depicted seated atop the ruler's name in the original "serekh" (palace facade) style of hieroglyphic rendering. Her-wer is viewed as a brother, rather than son, of Wesir; His main opposite being Set, the Lord of the Red Land, and the storms in Her-wer's placid blue sky. Confusion of Her-wer's attributes with Heru-sa-Aset's led in later times to both Netjeru being intertwined; however, in His earliest depictions, Her-wer is strictly a celestial and sometimes solar divinity; only later is He associated with the kings and with the myth cycle of the Wesirian cult."

This one is a more scientific explanation of Heru'ur. (my source for this one: http://www.kemet.org/glossary/heru-ur.html)

Voila, I hope I enlightened Heru'ur a little!

Greetz, Falcon Horus

kelsi · 23rd August 2002, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Now, where are Nut, Maat, Sakmet, Sobek, and Min? (No, I don't have THAT many cats!)

Why have you selected only a few? Is there some significance?

Falcon Horus - So, the site is saying that Heru'Ur (or Har Wer) is the borhter of Osiris, whereas Horus is typically his son? That's the only difference I've encountered up til now too.

webmouse · 24th August 2002, 03:24 AM

I just grabbed some names off a papyrus we have on the wall -- that and Sobek Min was my most favorite cat, but he died of leukemia about three years ago.

Yep, lots of gods out there. I'm partial to the Celtic ones, too, but the show hasn't gone there yet.

Falcon Horus · 24th August 2002, 05:35 PM

Well, I could look for more info on Heru'ur and Horus but right now I'm in the middle of my re-exams and I don't have that much time. But I promise I'll look it up when I'm finished! That's a promise!

Falcon Horus

PTeppic · 25th August 2002, 08:13 PM

I'm not sure if there is any more about Harcesis after about 1/2 way through season 5 (where I am up to), but...

What has actually been said about Harcesis? They seem to be the human off-spring of blended symbiote-hosts.

Heru'ur could be the symbiote son of symbiote Ra and Hathor, raised in a Jaffa and then blended "normally". In the same way that dozens if not hundreds of Goa'uld are... though there are other options...

They don't really go into too much detail about normal Goa'uld reproduction... except perhaps in Hathor. They suggest the hosts are involved (I don't think we need to spell it out

- watch the episode

) - but of course this will be a change since they started taking hosts. The unblended symbiotes must also have a method - presumably similar to reptiles. Hathor showed that dozens of spawn are produced, which would be consistent with reptiles, can we assume the same would be true of the unblended symbiote? I believe so.

The difference then would be whether the "father" is a blended or unblended human, and whether it is the female host or symbiote who becomes pregnant. Four options, two we have seen ("normal" reproduction as in Hathor and that resulting in Harcesis as in Secrets), leaving two we haven't seen. This means we have not yet seen blended father and pregnancy in the female symbiote - would this also be harcesis? Safe to say we all know about the fourth option, unblended male and unblended female! :blush:

[I may have to either move this, or start the same discussion in Technical or Aliens]

webmouse · 27th August 2002, 03:12 PM

From S6 "Cure" --

The Tok'ra explain that symbiotes are produced asexually by a goa'uld queen because she can fertilize her own eggs. Her young contain all the knowledge she voluntarily passes on to them.

Symbiotes, containing all knowledge of the queen that bore them, then acquire knowledge during their own lifespans, moving from host to host as necessary, or remaining in one host through the use of a sarc. A single symbiote therefore could live for millenia, with its own knowledge plus whatever it acquires from its host(s).

It does not seem logical that a biological mating between two goa'uld hosts could give their child knowledge that neither symbiote parent possessed, but there's still a lot of knowledge to pass on in any case. The harsesus (however its spelled

) is a superior host for any lucky symbiote to infest.

Why the Tok'ra aren't producing hoards of harsesi baffles me. If nothing else, the human hosts ought to be allowed to get lucky now and then. :evil:

PTeppic · 27th August 2002, 07:17 PM

I suppose it comes down to morals or standards, and whilst you would imagine that this is last thing that Goa'uld have, this seems to be one of them!

We, as a race, can probably achieve human cloning. On some medical, but mostly religious/moral grounds we say no. It appears the Goa'uld have a similar problem when it comes to letting their hosts have some fun. Or, they have some problem about combining genetic memory which we can't comprehend and haven't been told. It doesn't seem to be a big deal, and in fact would appear to be a great advantage....

webmouse · 27th August 2002, 07:42 PM

For the Goa'uld who completely suppress the host personality, this makes sense. But what of the Tok'ra who supposedly let the host personality manifest itself at will? Doesn't the host's sexual desires (one of the two major urges of the human species) present a problem? Do potential Tok'ra hosts get told that once blended there's no getting lucky again? (I can hear Jack now -- "And when were you going to tell me THAT?")

kelsi · 28th August 2002, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by webmouse
Why the Tok'ra aren't producing hoards of harsesi baffles me.

Maybe cos they've been out of the gene pool for millenia, so they would rather get symbiotes who know everything that the Goa'uld do - i.e. try to convince the some Goa'uld to join them. Symbiotes (Tok'ra or Goa'uild) have genetic memory anyway, maybe a Harsiesis if it was captured, would "know too much"?

webmouse · 28th August 2002, 03:02 PM

Yes, the harsesus would know too much and that would seem to be the best reason not to engage in biological procreation. But with the Tok'Ra facing extinction, and with the normal urges of their hosts supposedly not suppressed (remember Fraya going after Jack while saying that Anise had the hots for Daniel?) I'm surprised that the Tok'Ra haven't at least had a few "accidents."

But then I'm not really surprised because the writers haven't wanted or haven't thought to go there.

kelsi · 29th August 2002, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by webmouse
I'm surprised that the Tok'Ra haven't at least had a few "accidents."

Maybe they have, but SG1 just hasn't got to hear of it, so therefore we haven't.

PTeppic · 29th August 2002, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by webmouse
Yes, the harsesus would know too much and that would seem to be the best reason not to engage in biological procreation.

I've got my "stupid" head on today - WHY would that be a reason for not producing Harsesusisuses...?

I can only think that whilst all the memory is already "known", it would put two Goa'uld's knowledge in the one body. But, much of the knowledge would be common??

23rd August 2002, 08:56 AM	#19 (permalink)
Falcon Horus Keeper of the Gate Join Date: May 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 668	Heru'ur "Also known as Horus the Elder, Heru'ur is purported to be the offspring of Ra and Hathor. However, if that were true, he would be Harsesis and therefore able to use the combined knowledge of the Goa'uld against others to become the dominant power in the universe. More likely to be the adopted son of Ra, Heru'ur has tried to steal the son of Apophis and Ammonet/Sha're in order to obtain the all-important information carried within the boy." This the explanation they use in the show. (my source for this: Stargate SG-1, The Illustrated Companion Season 3 and 4) "Her-wer (Har-wer; G/R Haroeris) - "Great Heru/Heru the Elder" Heru in His most abstract, "original" form is known as a hawk, primarily a divinity of sky, even on Predynastic pottery and other objects. The hawk of Her-wer came to be associated with the kingship and was depicted seated atop the ruler's name in the original "serekh" (palace facade) style of hieroglyphic rendering. Her-wer is viewed as a brother, rather than son, of Wesir; His main opposite being Set, the Lord of the Red Land, and the storms in Her-wer's placid blue sky. Confusion of Her-wer's attributes with Heru-sa-Aset's led in later times to both Netjeru being intertwined; however, in His earliest depictions, Her-wer is strictly a celestial and sometimes solar divinity; only later is He associated with the kings and with the myth cycle of the Wesirian cult." This one is a more scientific explanation of Heru'ur. (my source for this one: http://www.kemet.org/glossary/heru-ur.html) Voila, I hope I enlightened Heru'ur a little! Greetz, Falcon Horus

22nd August 2002, 12:48 PM	#16 (permalink)
kelsi Expert Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Sitting in front of my computer, at home, on Chulak. Posts: 1,411	Falcon Horus - thing is, I tend to just sit and rant, instead of actually finding evidence. Can you find any info on Heru'Ur and how he differs from Horus?

22nd August 2002, 11:46 PM	#18 (permalink)
webmouse Fearless Mouse Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Silver Spring, Maryland Posts: 1,159	Finally, Bastet gets a mention! My cat Bastet (who is the true goddess of love and beauty and pleasure -- very big on pleasure) has been nagging me for ages about being left out of the show. Just couldn't understand why that cow-girl Hathor gets all the attention! Well, that's a cat for you. Now, where are Nut, Maat, Sakmet, Sobek, and Min? (No, I don't have THAT many cats!) As for Christianity's ancient underpinnings -- the god dying and rising from the dead was really old news by the time Jesus showed up. Osiris, Dionysis, Tamuz -- been there, done that. :evil:

24th August 2002, 03:24 AM	#21 (permalink)
webmouse Fearless Mouse Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Silver Spring, Maryland Posts: 1,159	I just grabbed some names off a papyrus we have on the wall -- that and Sobek Min was my most favorite cat, but he died of leukemia about three years ago. Yep, lots of gods out there. I'm partial to the Celtic ones, too, but the show hasn't gone there yet.

24th August 2002, 05:35 PM	#22 (permalink)
Falcon Horus Keeper of the Gate Join Date: May 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 668	Well, I could look for more info on Heru'ur and Horus but right now I'm in the middle of my re-exams and I don't have that much time. But I promise I'll look it up when I'm finished! That's a promise! Falcon Horus

25th August 2002, 08:13 PM	#23 (permalink)
PTeppic Reetou Diplomatic Corp Join Date: May 2001 Location: North-west UK Posts: 3,086	I'm not sure if there is any more about Harcesis after about 1/2 way through season 5 (where I am up to), but... What has actually been said about Harcesis? They seem to be the human off-spring of blended symbiote-hosts. Heru'ur could be the symbiote son of symbiote Ra and Hathor, raised in a Jaffa and then blended "normally". In the same way that dozens if not hundreds of Goa'uld are... though there are other options... They don't really go into too much detail about normal Goa'uld reproduction... except perhaps in Hathor. They suggest the hosts are involved (I don't think we need to spell it out - watch the episode ) - but of course this will be a change since they started taking hosts. The unblended symbiotes must also have a method - presumably similar to reptiles. Hathor showed that dozens of spawn are produced, which would be consistent with reptiles, can we assume the same would be true of the unblended symbiote? I believe so. The difference then would be whether the "father" is a blended or unblended human, and whether it is the female host or symbiote who becomes pregnant. Four options, two we have seen ("normal" reproduction as in Hathor and that resulting in Harcesis as in Secrets), leaving two we haven't seen. This means we have not yet seen blended father and pregnancy in the female symbiote - would this also be harcesis? Safe to say we all know about the fourth option, unblended male and unblended female! :blush: [I may have to either move this, or start the same discussion in Technical or Aliens]

27th August 2002, 03:12 PM	#24 (permalink)
webmouse Fearless Mouse Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Silver Spring, Maryland Posts: 1,159	From S6 "Cure" -- The Tok'ra explain that symbiotes are produced asexually by a goa'uld queen because she can fertilize her own eggs. Her young contain all the knowledge she voluntarily passes on to them. Symbiotes, containing all knowledge of the queen that bore them, then acquire knowledge during their own lifespans, moving from host to host as necessary, or remaining in one host through the use of a sarc. A single symbiote therefore could live for millenia, with its own knowledge plus whatever it acquires from its host(s). It does not seem logical that a biological mating between two goa'uld hosts could give their child knowledge that neither symbiote parent possessed, but there's still a lot of knowledge to pass on in any case. The harsesus (however its spelled ) is a superior host for any lucky symbiote to infest. Why the Tok'ra aren't producing hoards of harsesi baffles me. If nothing else, the human hosts ought to be allowed to get lucky now and then. :evil:

27th August 2002, 07:17 PM	#25 (permalink)
PTeppic Reetou Diplomatic Corp Join Date: May 2001 Location: North-west UK Posts: 3,086	I suppose it comes down to morals or standards, and whilst you would imagine that this is last thing that Goa'uld have, this seems to be one of them! We, as a race, can probably achieve human cloning. On some medical, but mostly religious/moral grounds we say no. It appears the Goa'uld have a similar problem when it comes to letting their hosts have some fun. Or, they have some problem about combining genetic memory which we can't comprehend and haven't been told. It doesn't seem to be a big deal, and in fact would appear to be a great advantage....

27th August 2002, 07:42 PM	#26 (permalink)
webmouse Fearless Mouse Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Silver Spring, Maryland Posts: 1,159	For the Goa'uld who completely suppress the host personality, this makes sense. But what of the Tok'ra who supposedly let the host personality manifest itself at will? Doesn't the host's sexual desires (one of the two major urges of the human species) present a problem? Do potential Tok'ra hosts get told that once blended there's no getting lucky again? (I can hear Jack now -- "And when were you going to tell me THAT?")

28th August 2002, 03:02 PM	#28 (permalink)
webmouse Fearless Mouse Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Silver Spring, Maryland Posts: 1,159	Yes, the harsesus would know too much and that would seem to be the best reason not to engage in biological procreation. But with the Tok'Ra facing extinction, and with the normal urges of their hosts supposedly not suppressed (remember Fraya going after Jack while saying that Anise had the hots for Daniel?) I'm surprised that the Tok'Ra haven't at least had a few "accidents." But then I'm not really surprised because the writers haven't wanted or haven't thought to go there.