Influences on Tolkien's writing

[I, Brian]

Some interesting reading to be had:

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ng...nfluences.html

I never actually knew that Tolkien fought in World War 1 - let alone at the infamous Battle of the Somme.

But this is a paragraph worth erpeating, because people continually tell me that LOTR was allegory for WWII:

Originally Posted by National Geographic

"An author cannot of course remain wholly unaffected by his experience," Tolkien acknowledged, but he strongly denied that his story was an allegory for World War I or II.* Although The Lord of the Rings was written during World War II and follows the rise of a great evil threatening to envelop the world, the ring was not meant to symbolize the atomic bomb. Likewise, the characters Sauron and Saruman, although both tyrants, are imaginary characters and are not meant to represent Hitler or Stalin.

...

In the foreword to the second edition of The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien wrote, "By 1918, all but one of my close friends were dead." The reader cannot help but notice that the Dead Marshes of Mordor is eerily reminiscent of World War I's Western Front and its utter devastation of life.

[DylanSomething]

Right, Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, I recall, were at a disagreement about allegory: Lewis believed allegory was the way to go, tolkien believed more in analogy--a milder allegory, I might say about now. I need a nap....

[Sibeling]

Only those people who have not read LOTR can say it was an allegory for WWII, because in the foreword the author clearly states that it was not.

[LadyFel]

Originally Posted by Sibeling

Only those people who have not read LOTR can say it was an allegory for WWII, because in the foreword the author clearly states that it was not.

Well, sorry, but I missed the edition with the foreword.

I mean at the end of the day, it isn't the author's intent that surfaces so much when you read a book, it's the reader's interpretation. And yes, at points the book really does seem to be a diatribe against mindless ideological regimes, dictators, the destruction of nature through accelerated industrialization, and Frodo's journey has been compared to the Passion of Christ, (or, if you want more literal lifting from the Bible, Gandalf's your man...dies and is returned three days later?? Let's all yell COPY CAT... )

Even Tolkien aknowledged that the book was a 'very Catholic work' in one of his letters, as well as the above quote "An author cannot of course remain wholly unaffected by his experience"

Everyone finds something in the books they read that they can identify with, even if it wasn't meant to be there in that context, even if, as is the case with Tolkien's work, he explicitly wanted to create a kind of english mythology rather than a commentary of the times he lived in. Aspects of it snuck in, they always do, but is it really important?

[Teresa Edgerton]

The problem with allegory is that it restricts interpretation. If A stands for X than B must mean Y.

Applicability, as Tolkien himself pointed out, is another matter entirely.

If we read LOTR as an extended diatribe against authoritarian regimes, or against an increasingly mechanized world, that still allows each new generation to apply it to their own concerns. But if the War of the Ring is an allegory for WWII, and Sauron is Hitler ... well, then he can't be the next tyrant who comes along, as well. He's stuck being Adolf Hitler.

[Amber]

I read something about Frodo destroying the ring on an Easter Sunday. Of course Tolkien was much influenced by his Catholicism, but to say that the book is an analogy for WW11 is foolish to say the least. That's like saying the book proves that Tolkien was gay, because of Frodo and Sam's friendship.

Ridiculous you say?

There are people who swear it's true, and they belong with those who make Lord of the Rings out to be an allegory, against the express wishes of the author.

[Dachux]

I have read that Tolkien denied any kind of allegory about WWII. Kind of stuff you have mensioned above: like Sauron is Hitler; The Ring of Power - A-bomb and so on... ...

Yeah - maybe there are meny parallel things you can see in LOTR and compare with real events in the history... But there are also lot of aspects, who don't really match. I disbelieve in such kind of allegory, but even Tolkien didn't say it clearly. I guess he just left us (according to many other stuff) to have our own deems.

[Rosemary]

I've have read the same thing on a few occasions Dachux. There was even an article written by his son, who also denied the war had any bearing on his father's work.

[Treikayan]

Originally Posted by LadyFel

...and Frodo's journey has been compared to the Passion of Christ, (or, if you want more literal lifting from the Bible, Gandalf's your man...dies and is returned three days later?? Let's all yell COPY CAT... )

Has anyone looked closely at the dates in the stories too? March 25th, the Fall of Barad'dur and December 25th, the departure of the Fellowship. March 25th not only denotes the spring time but it coincides to the Resurrection of Christ. And, in some religions, like the Megiddo, it is Christmas Day.

Originally Posted by Meggido Church, Rochester NY

A word might be said about the Meggidos unorthodox understanding of Christmas. Because for them, Christ was born in the spring, the Christmas celebration is held in springtime; their first observance was held on March 25, 1906, on what Megiddos regard as the True Christmas.

My grandmother was Megiddo and my Mom remembers going to Rochester in March to celebrate Christmas there...

Other themes like the character of Melkor or Morgoth (Silmarillion) cloesly resemble the aspects as the devil or Satan.

Lastly, it is funny to see this but Tolkien passed away in 1973...

3 rings were gifted to the elves, wise and fair...
7 rings to the dwarf lords...
9 rings given to men, who desire power...
and
1 ring, the one ring.

1-9-7-3.

[Raynor]

if you want more literal lifting from the Bible, Gandalf's your man...dies and is returned three days later?? Let's all yell COPY CAT...

In Letter #181, Tolkien writes:

Thus Gandalf faced and suffered death; and came back or was sent back, as he says, with enhanced power. But though one may be in this reminded of the Gospels, it is not really the same thing at all. The Incarnation of God is an infinitely greater thing than anything I would dare to write. Here I am only concerned with Death as part of the nature, physical and spiritual, of Man, and with Hope without guarantees

[Teresa Edgerton]

There is a whole vast territory between absolutely no influence at all and the one-to-one correspondence of allegory. I would say that LOTR falls about midway between for a lot of different influences (and once there is more than one influence, allegory pretty much flies out the window).

[Dachux]

mmm, again about Bible...

There is more just the dates of the departure of the fellowship and the downfall of Sauron (They were really chosen by Tolkien) and Gandalf's reversion...

You can't really feel that, but Christianity is all around LOTR and Silmarillion. For exapmle take Galadriel. She is symbolic figure of mother in LOTR. I don't think about her personal deems and experiences (she is not very perfect lady at all , but for The Fellowship and specially for Frodo she seems like one. She gives advices and take care of them. I guess, she feels that and finds out for herself, when she passes on the Ring. She is similar with Varda in Silmarillion. In LOTR Galadriel takes her place.

O, and you can't forget that Tolkien had made real religion. Iluvatar and valar and maiar... what more?

[sanityassassin]

There is one point to remember:-

There is nothing new under heaven

Sauron could be any bad historical figure Hitler, Franco, Ghengis Khan, Attila the Hun and a hundred others the story is an old one retold a new with different parts of old tales it is a basic tale of good vs evil told in a new way a lot of his life proberly influenced the story either knownly or unknownly but at the end of the day it still is a great story well written and will be remembered for years and years to come

[Raynor]

You can't really feel that, but Christianity is all around LOTR and Silmarillion

Indeed:

Originally Posted by Letter# 142

The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism

O, and you can't forget that Tolkien had made real religion

Well, that isn't entirely so... the only things remembering religion are the festivals the Valar did to celebrate Eru and the only thing resembling a church would be the Pillar of Heaven in Numenor. As Tolkien writes in Letter#156, Men "escaped from 'religion' in a pagan sense, into a pure monotheist world, in which all things and beings and powers that might seem worshipful were not to be worshipped, not even the gods (the Valar), being only creatures of the One. And He was immensely remote"

[Dachux]

oh, i have read that humans of Gondor avoided religion because they were afraid to repeat their early error of worshipping Sauron.

... and to my mind, Tolkien really intended the influences of religion.

... and good vs bad stars, when Melkor and Sauron are trying to act like gods - creating. Quite similar with Lucifer... turning away from God and becomming Satan...