[Huttman]

Originally Posted by Interference

I'm still working my through the negatives - do you mean that you can conceive of restrictions to being allowed to enjoy life more? Or that "not enjoying life more" is something you aspire to doing and you can't imagine anything that would hold you back from that goal?


Pedantry can be fun

What I meant was, with all the human restrictions we have, I cannot imagine not being able to enjoy life to the fullest anyway. I love life and being alive, my creativity, imagination, and understanding give me untold joy, mid-life crisis looming not withstanding (I am human after all). There is a flip side to that as living in this world under present conditions is not...a paradise situation for even what I perceive it could be. Without going into it too much, I have a hope of this world being without conflict, sickness and death someday; and that gives me an optimistic view of the future.

Originally Posted by Peter Graham

How about a lack of disease? You will no doubt argue that oppression, starvation, war, inequality etc are all human created conditions, but it's difficult to run that argument for disease.

See above comment for response to that one.

Originally Posted by Peter Graham

And here is the rub. The consequences of "misusing" our free will are out of all proportion to the offence committed. You may not believe in the burning pits (which I still say places you in a small minority even of those who subscribe to the Abrahamic faiths), but you still believe in a difference of treatment which is broadly expressed as eternal life for some and the light going off for everyone else. As a proportion of our eternal lives, our mortal lives are infintessimally small. There is no suggestion in any of the theology with which I am familiar which states that we can go on exercising free will once we have passed (or failed) God's little salvation test.

Hmm...Thanks, I have noticed that rather small minority I'm in, too. I have to say, with the harshness of this world's history and current condition, don't you think it possible for a lot of the bible to be taught inaccurately as well? No person ever did anything to deserve to have life in the first place. It's impossible. All that is asked of us is basically the golden rule. For someone to inherit eternal death rather than eternal life, I'm would suspect they would know better but choose not to be nice anyway. In my experience, the harsh judge god sitting there with his checklist waiting to make a mark against you and throwing a few storms your way for a laugh is much more a cynical creation of this cynical world.

Originally Posted by Peter Graham

The Bible is hopelessly riven with contradiction and attempts by intelligent and eminent theologians to square the circle put me in mind of horses and stable doors.

If you have an example in mind, please let me know. I do know of advise that goes both ways from Proverbs; It says not to answer a foolish person so as not to become equal to them and the next verse says answer a foolish person so they do not become wise in their own eyes. Contradiction or advise to measure the situation and apply one or the other which ever is fitting?

Originally Posted by Peter Graham

They decide on the conclusion before they consider the (largely self-serving) evidence. If you want the Bible to be about fire and brimstone, it is easy to find the passages which support such a reading. The so called "warped" versions of religion practised by terrorists, cultists and so on are every bit as doctrinally sound as the more socially acceptable manifestations practised by thoroughly decent, tolerant folk such as yourself.

Reminds me of a news story about bin laden who did that very thing; taking his Koran and using it completely out of context to justify his horrific behavior.

Originally Posted by Peter Graham

I can certainly understand - and respect - your argument. But for me, you are having it both ways.

But I like cake

Originally Posted by paranoid marvin

What we do is goverened by our morals, our fears, our beliefs. By the time we are old enough to be capable of making concious decisions, our brains are already too filled with stuff to make any choice we make 'free'.

"Hmmm. That is why, unlearn you must, what you have learned" - says the little green guy sitting there eating kettlecorn popcorn with 3D glasses on