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Old 15th March 2011, 08:20 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek

Q is not interested in helping anyone win a war. Never has been. The jedi spent 3 whole movies destroying droids that were stronger and faster. X-men? I didn't think they were part of this thread, or is it just because professor x served aboard the Enterprise before opening his school for mutants? There aren't near enough mutants on Earth, anyway. You might need the Shiar Empire to take over the Republic, but they don't have the man power either. I will say that Kallark/Gladiator can take out any jedi who ever lived, so long as he believes he can.

How far was the Enterprise from Earth when it just appeared in an instant? Why do they need wormholes to get to the other side of the galaxy? Why was Voyager's whole story based off the fact that it would take them decades just to get back to Federation space?

Here is a quote from Wikipedia. Not the most reliable source of information, but I think they can be trusted to get the plot details for Star Trek Voyager right.

Quote:
Voyager enters the dangerous Badlands to find the Maquis ship, but an ancient alien known as the Caretaker transports both ships to the Delta Quadrant, 70,000 light years on the other side of the galaxy. In the process, several members of Voyager's crew are killed, including the first officer, helmsman, chief engineer, and chief medical officer along with all the medical personnel. Due to Voyager being on a short first mission no counsellor was assigned to the ship, something that Janeway remarks could have been useful throughout the journey home. Voyager and the Maquis ship are attacked by Kazon raiders intent on capturing the Caretaker's Array, which was used to transport the ships. The Maquis ship collides with a Kazon ship, destroying both, after the Maquis crew transports to Voyager. Believing the Kazon will use the Array to harm the Ocampa, Janeway decides to destroy it rather than use it to return home.
The Starfleet and Maquis crews integrate and work together as they begin the 70,000-light-year journey home, predicted to take 75 years.
At 1.5 times the speed of light, it would take the millennium falcon decades to get to Alderaan from Tattooine, or pretty much anywhere else. There would be no Republic, no Empire, no space travel, and no movie. So 1.5 past light speed must be a whole lot faster than you're thinking it is.

Here's an image of the galactic map, not sure of it's accuracy, but there are dozens of different maps online I haven't checked to see if any of them are the same. Maybe they are all the same, and all accurate.

Last edited by C Of K; 15th March 2011 at 09:09 PM. Reason: posting image of great star wars galaxy
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Old 16th March 2011, 12:40 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek

This video is about Mass Effect 2, but 7 minutes in the guy with the silver hair starts talking about certain truths that apply to this thread, and the last few post in particular. Star Trek and Star Wars are based off of two totally different types of civilizations. Star Trek is made up of type 2 civilizations like the Federation, and the Klingon Empire. Star Wars is the next step, a type 3 civilization that is made up of an entire galaxy. You might want to skip right to that point instead of watching the whole thing, although the whole video is pretty interesting.

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Old 16th March 2011, 01:36 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek

My qestion was what does half past light speed mean? It could be that the galaxy is a very small one. I'm talking about voyager's home journey from the Delta Quadrant. They attained Warp 10 which is infinited speed and reached earth in an instant. You said the Q wouldn't be interested in the war? That's not the point. We're having both inverses take on each other with all the resources each one has. The Q would simply do a reality warp and cause the entire Star Wars universe to become non existant. You're saying I have inaccuracies when really the wikipedia article doesn't even say how they get home. I haven't found anything to verify my statements about Voyager and Enterprise. I give up. I was wrong to through the X-Men in, but some of the mutants are powerful that they wouldn't need huge numbers. I'm talking about mutants like Darwin, Lifeguard or Cannonball. Anyway I'm way off subject. Anyways I take everything at face value and I haven't any evidence on lightspeed just empty words. The doesn't specify the distance between the planets. The difinition of galaxy is simply a collecton of starts. No size is specified. For all I know the Star War's galaxy can be fourty or fifty light years across.

Species 8472 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Old 16th March 2011, 04:22 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek

Half past light speed could mean light speed times half of light speed. (That would be 186,282 miles per second times 98,141 miles per second.) Or it could be something else. It's obviously not light speed plus half of light speed. (186,282 miles per second plus 98,141 miles per second.) It would take the millennium falcon 20 years to travel 40 light years at that speed, and 6 months to travel 1 light year. Even in a small galaxy, that would disagree with everything they show onscreen.

There is no reference to point to, as far as I'm aware of, that would answer your question. My guessing the answer may not be right either, but it would agree more with the speeds that they were obviously using in the movies, just because of the fact that they weren't all old men at the end of a hyperspace journey.

Quote:
You said the Q wouldn't be interested in the war? That's not the point. We're having both inverses take on each other with all the resources each one has.
But it is the point. How many civilizations have the Q taken over. It's not in their character to fight wars. The Federation and the Republic, on the other hand, do fight wars. You can put God in any one of these realities, but if God never does anything, it really doesn't matter. You can't have both universes take on each other with all their resources, because that is not keeping true to what those universes are about. The Federation and the Borg have never been allies. It completely goes against everything that Star Trek is about to have them team up to fight the Republic when they have never teamed up. Once you've done that, it isn't Star Trek anymore, it is something else entirely.

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but some of the mutants are powerful that they wouldn't need huge numbers. I'm talking about mutants like Darwin, Lifeguard or Cannonball.
It would be a really boring comic if those guys were blowing up millions of people, because that's what they would have to do to take over the Republic. The Clones wars is not some small scale skirmish that you see in Star Trek or something. These guys don't fight on 3 or 4 worlds. They aren't just protecting Cardassian territory from Klingon invasion. When they fight, it's literally 10,000 solar systems on one side, and even more on the other.

Below is a quote straight from Episode 2

Quote:
The Rise of the Separatist Movement

"As I explained to you earlier, I am quite convinced that ten thousand more systems will rally to our cause with your support, gentlemen." ―Count Dooku to the Separatist Council[src]
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Old 17th March 2011, 06:52 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek

Another posibility is maybe they stop time. if they did that would expain it. Anyway the Scarlet Witch for X-Men could use realty warping to make the entire Star Wars universe non-existant. Star Trek has something else that Star Wars doesn't have and that's time travel ability. Again if we're having a Star Wars vs. Star Trek battle we're including all races from both. It's not a matter of if the Q will do it. That's not the issue. You're purposely trying make Star Wars win. That's the way I see it. You're trying to cheat to win and it's not working. Actually they wouldn't be old by the time they reach their destination because time dilation must be taken into account. Yes time dilation has been proven in atomic particles. They would reach their destination and find that it had aged fourty years so that wouldn't exactly make sense, but it would make sense to stop time. They'd be frozen to an outside observer, but they'd be doing overthing normally to an inside observer and vice versa. I understand relativity full and i can visualize it in my head. I wish they'd say how fast their ships went though. I know what Count said. Anyway in the Star Trek movie the Romulans built a ship that would drill into a planet and embed a device that would create a black hole to destroy the planet. Anyway 8472 could likely destroy the Deathstar. The Deathstar wouldn't stand a chance if the Cubes were placed a light year away. The distance apart could even be the same distance as between the Earth and the Moon the Deathstar would fail. When Spock went back in time in the new Star Treck movie he altered both Kirk and the Spock so it would be an alternate reality.
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Old 17th March 2011, 08:37 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek

I couldn't edit my post and I can't delete my posts. What I want to do is erase my presense from this thread. I should've stayed out of it since I was proven wrong anyway the idiot I am.
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Old 17th March 2011, 11:54 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek

Ah, you see. Not even the Scarlet witch will help erase your presence from this thread.
But you're not an idiot. That doesn't mean I agree with you though. And here's why...

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Originally Posted by Deathpool View Post
Star Trek has something else that Star Wars doesn't have and that's time travel ability.
They have time traveled, but name one instance where they used it to win a war. It's not a stable enough weapon for them to use, and is only used when it is an absolute necessity, in such instances when they need to bring wales from the past, or an adversary has gone back in time first to assimilate humanity. There have been other instances, but it isn't a weapon they can just pull out any time they want, and use like a phaser, or the Enterprise. If they tried to, it would work against them 99% of the time. That's why they don't use time travel to fix all the bad things that have happened in the past.

Quote:
Again if we're having a Star Wars vs. Star Trek battle we're including all races from both.
Including all the races of both is fine, but you can't have the Empire fight on the side of the Republic against the Borg and the Federation. There has to be some semblance of reality for any kind of meaningful judgment to be made on the matter. The Republic could and would never back up the Empire, and the Borg would never back up the Federation.

Quote:
It's not a matter of if the Q will do it. That's not the issue. You're purposely trying make Star Wars win. That's the way I see it. You're trying to cheat to win and it's not working.
Are you trying to say I'm not a fan of Star Trek? Because that isn't true at all. I'm telling you what I think, based on certain facts, and there is no way any single one of the main governments in Star Trek can take on their counter parts in Star Wars when they have such limited man power and transportation issues. Q, on the other hand never did anything to actually change the fate of the Star Trek galaxy. He can basically do anything, but, as I recall, there are rules for the Q, and there are certain things they will never do, probably because it is beneath them. Now, if you want to use Q in this way, go right ahead, but he will be out of character, and there is no answer for that. All I can say is that Q has never made any civilization vanish, or harmed another civilization to the extent that you're talking about..

Quote:
Actually they wouldn't be old by the time they reach their destination because time dilation must be taken into account. Yes time dilation has been proven in atomic particles. They would reach their destination and find that it had aged fourty years so that wouldn't exactly make sense, but it would make sense to stop time. They'd be frozen to an outside observer, but they'd be doing overthing normally to an inside observer and vice versa. I understand relativity full and i can visualize it in my head. I wish they'd say how fast their ships went though.
Strange hyperspace time anomalies have never had a place in Star Wars. That is Star Trek territory through and through.

Quote:
I know what Count said. Anyway in the Star Trek movie the Romulans built a ship that would drill into a planet and embed a device that would create a black hole to destroy the planet. Anyway 8472 could likely destroy the Deathstar. The Deathstar wouldn't stand a chance if the Cubes were placed a light year away. The distance apart could even be the same distance as between the Earth and the Moon the Deathstar would fail.
Possibly, possibly not. Now this is a scenario that actually makes sense. A Star Wars super weapon, against a Star Trek super weapon. It's simple, and conceivable. The fact of the matter is that both super weapons can be stopped, and under certain circumstances, either one could win. In Star Trek, that drill has to be used in order to use red matter to destroy a planet. I'd like to see them get it close enough to the Death Star to use it. It is a rather large target.

Quote:
When Spock went back in time in the new Star Treck movie he altered both Kirk and the Spock so it would be an alternate reality.
From a certain point of view, this can be viewed as an instance where time travel worked against everyone involved, and wasn't used to fix things back to the way they were.
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Old 18th March 2011, 08:20 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek

It could very easily be argued that the Federation is closer to the Empire than it is to the Rebels. Luke,Leia and Han would feel far more at home with the Maquis.
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Old 19th March 2011, 12:44 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek

Interesting observation. I've never thought of it that way. The Federation is most like the Republic, which was the type of government Han, Luke and Leia were trying to establish. It isn't known for grinding civilizations down beneath an iron rule, like the Empire. Also the Maquis weren't formed for the purpose of fighting the Federation like the Rebels were formed to fight the Empire. The Maquis did fight the Federation at times, but defeating the Federation wasn't their goal. They wanted to create a new civilization apart from all the others, while Rebels wanted to replace a government.
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Old 19th March 2011, 07:41 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek

But in the Star Wars universe , the Empire didnt start out evil ; or at least that wasnt the intention. It is the establishment , and is the dominant force in the galaxy. This is essentially the Federation ; but gone bad , stale and rotten after so many years in control. You can see in the various Star Wars movies and episodes that there are characters in the upper echelons of Starfleet , Klingon and Vulcan empires who have the potential (even the inclination) to turn to the 'dark side'.

The Maquis are freedom fighters , but they are also free spirits , trying to do what is right outside of the restrictions of government and regulation. They aren't bad or evil , just operate outside of the law , and so find themselves attacked and hampered by the Federation who essentially see them as 'rebels'.

Realistically I couldnt see any of our friends from Star Wars having the self-discipline to work within the confines are Starfleet rules , and no doubt would go running off on missions of their own , making them far more like Maquis than Federation
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Old 20th March 2011, 05:34 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek

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Originally Posted by C Of K View Post
Ah, you see. Not even the Scarlet witch will help erase your presence from this thread.
But you're not an idiot. That doesn't mean I agree with you though. And here's why...



They have time traveled, but name one instance where they used it to win a war. It's not a stable enough weapon for them to use, and is only used when it is an absolute necessity, in such instances when they need to bring wales from the past, or an adversary has gone back in time first to assimilate humanity. There have been other instances, but it isn't a weapon they can just pull out any time they want, and use like a phaser, or the Enterprise. If they tried to, it would work against them 99% of the time. That's why they don't use time travel to fix all the bad things that have happened in the past. A lot times I remeber something, but it turns out it never happened.

Including all the races of both is fine, but you can't have the Empire fight on the side of the Republic against the Borg and the Federation. There has to be some semblance of reality for any kind of meaningful judgment to be made on the matter. The Republic could and would never back up the Empire, and the Borg would never back up the Federation.

Are you trying to say I'm not a fan of Star Trek? Because that isn't true at all. I'm telling you what I think, based on certain facts, and there is no way any single one of the main governments in Star Trek can take on their counter parts in Star Wars when they have such limited man power and transportation issues. Q, on the other hand never did anything to actually change the fate of the Star Trek galaxy. He can basically do anything, but, as I recall, there are rules for the Q, and there are certain things they will never do, probably because it is beneath them. Now, if you want to use Q in this way, go right ahead, but he will be out of character, and there is no answer for that. All I can say is that Q has never made any civilization vanish, or harmed another civilization to the extent that you're talking about..

Strange hyperspace time anomalies have never had a place in Star Wars. That is Star Trek territory through and through.

Possibly, possibly not. Now this is a scenario that actually makes sense. A Star Wars super weapon, against a Star Trek super weapon. It's simple, and conceivable. The fact of the matter is that both super weapons can be stopped, and under certain circumstances, either one could win. In Star Trek, that drill has to be used in order to use red matter to destroy a planet. I'd like to see them get it close enough to the Death Star to use it. It is a rather large target.



From a certain point of view, this can be viewed as an instance where time travel worked against everyone involved, and wasn't used to fix things back to the way they were.
I get what you mean. I don't care too much for Starfleet. What got me was the Prime Directive. I feel like there are times when one must intervene and help a race. One of the times I'd intervene is a planet with Earths current technology was invaded and inslaved by a race with the Romulan's level of technology. I've been thinking for a while that I'm being controlled by something evil.
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Old 20th March 2011, 08:29 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek

But Starfleet Officers constantly break the Prime Directive, almost on a weekly basis! There would be no stories to tell if they stuck to it. So, while I like the wide canvas of the Star Trek universe, I do feel that it isn't a very probable future. More likely that hi-tech humans would act just as we do today - our politicians seem unable not to interfere in other people's civil wars at the moment - so much more like Iain Bank's 'Culture'.

Also 'Star Trek' has been argued to have a fascist ideology and an anti-corporate slant:
The Fascist Ideology of Star Trek: Militarism, Collectivism, & Atheism
Whereas 'Firefly' and 'Star Wars' have a much more realistic approach to these things - there is still money, still commerce, still a wide variety of fractured religious and political beliefs.

The Maquis were introduced in order to give us a few of these conflicting views aboard the 'USS Voyager', but after a few episodes you could hardly tell the Maquis from Starfleet any more.
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Old 20th March 2011, 09:24 AM   #73 (permalink)
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Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek

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Originally Posted by Dave View Post
But Starfleet Officers constantly break the Prime Directive, almost on a weekly basis! There would be no stories to tell if they stuck to it. So, while I like the wide canvas of the Star Trek universe, I do feel that it isn't a very probable future. More likely that hi-tech humans would act just as we do today - our politicians seem unable not to interfere in other people's civil wars at the moment - so much more like Iain Bank's 'Culture'.

Also 'Star Trek' has been argued to have a fascist ideology and an anti-corporate slant:
The Fascist Ideology of Star Trek: Militarism, Collectivism, & Atheism
Whereas 'Firefly' and 'Star Wars' have a much more realistic approach to these things - there is still money, still commerce, still a wide variety of fractured religious and political beliefs.

The Maquis were introduced in order to give us a few of these conflicting views aboard the 'USS Voyager', but after a few episodes you could hardly tell the Maquis from Starfleet any more.
I see what you mean about that. The main thing I like about Star Trek is that they're exploring new Worlds and I like watching the cloaked ships decloak. I really like Star Trek Six. In at least one of the episdes I felt so upset at Picard. I would never trust him to help since he wouldn't believe I was in danger. I'd feel better with the Jedi since I wouldn't have to come to them. It's not in my nature to ask for anything. I really like Star Wars. It's normal for me to come to the wrong conclusion and keep insisting I'm right. How arragant is that?
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Old 20th March 2011, 12:04 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek

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Originally Posted by paranoid marvin View Post
But in the Star Wars universe , the Empire didnt start out evil ; or at least that wasnt the intention. It is the establishment , and is the dominant force in the galaxy. This is essentially the Federation ; but gone bad , stale and rotten after so many years in control. You can see in the various Star Wars movies and episodes that there are characters in the upper echelons of Starfleet , Klingon and Vulcan empires who have the potential (even the inclination) to turn to the 'dark side'.

The Maquis are freedom fighters , but they are also free spirits , trying to do what is right outside of the restrictions of government and regulation. They aren't bad or evil , just operate outside of the law , and so find themselves attacked and hampered by the Federation who essentially see them as 'rebels'.

Realistically I couldnt see any of our friends from Star Wars having the self-discipline to work within the confines are Starfleet rules , and no doubt would go running off on missions of their own , making them far more like Maquis than Federation
According to Palpatine, the Empire wasn't evil. He brought about peace through force, and the threat of force. It was, in essence, a Sith Empire. It was built on slaughter and slavery. The Imperial Senate was a joke that lasted twenty years out of necessity, and non-human races were persecuted under human rule. It's no mistake that there are no aliens in the Imperial war machine. It is hinted at, though not out-rightly stated, that Palpatine hated aliens. He dealt with them out of necessity, and even recognized the brilliance of a select few, keeping them close to him, but for the most part he subjugated them.

The Federation did not have such beginnings.

Kirk was pretty roguish, even in his later years, and yet he achieved the rank of Admiral, and was arguably one of the most well known officers in Star Fleet history. The Rebs aren't much different, they couldn't be, because the end result of their rebellion was to set up a government that worked on principles that were much the same as the Federation's.

I agree that the Rebels are more like the Maquis than they are the Federation. But they did not remain rebels indefinitely, which means they would have to become more respectable. I can't agree that the Federation is anything like the Empire.
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