Ender: too much of a good thing?

[a|one]

Originally Posted by Lacedaemonian

What can I say I am a pessimist, the future holds nothing for me. I see mankind as being vile, and becoming viler at an uncanny rate. Fantasy offers the promise of an end to such matters. The Once and Future king and all that. SF does offer warnings....

My first day here and again I find myself agreeing with you Lace. Having read Ender's Game i found it to be an alright book. OSC does have a talent for keeping you interested, but the conclusion was just altogether to predictable.
And lets face it, he may have found an original concept for beating down the aliens, but its still just another way of beating down the aliens. As Sci-Fi books go, Ender Game was pretty good, but thats not saying much in my opinion. As for all the little ad-ons etc, the copy of enders game I read actually included several of these in it, and they didnt really appeal at all. Seems like hes just trying to milk his great success, but who knows.

Also Lace if your looking for a Sci Fi book/trilogy I recommend the Quintara Marathon. Some of the concepts for the three societys are a lil unrealistic, but the characters are very real and in depth. And its not all guns either

[Lacedaemonian]

Ender's Game was an excellent read. The end was a little poor but I think that most sci-fi and fantasy novels end poorly. Eddings is the worst author in this genre in terms of ending a story on a crap note. His Sparhawk series being a delightful example of this. I do plan on reading the other Ender books when I am in the mood.

[shaggydog]

I loved Ender's Game, and also its sequels, enders and shadow both, the only one i think OSC did not put the best of him is Shadow puppets, written quickly and uncarefully, it seems to me...
i really think Orson will not ever write things as Enders Game, Speaker for the death, Treason or Wyrms (and some other left behind) again, he is much occupied in his speeches and travelling around USA just teaching new writers than in create stories and characters as deep as he did.
Poor Alvin, his beggining was great, and... did u read the last one?? alvin has become a superman who can do everything, so you never suffer, he is too good, he is almost Jesus. The only thing that saves in that book is ArthurEstuard, the black boy Alvin is teaching the secrets of being a Maker.
I dont know, it is just i got really disapointed with the last books I read from him... >I hope the fourth shadow will be again a book, not some ideas put together and see what the quill throws off.

[Lacedaemonian]

I will have to check out the rest of his works, I own a few of them but I forget which ones. I think that they are Speaker for the Dead and Xenocide.

[shaggydog]

then go quick where u have your books and start with the Speaker for the Death... it is really BRILLIANT!! it even better than Ender's game...
its, for me, probably the best book he's written...

[Lacedaemonian]

People usually refer to Ender's Game as being the best book he has ever written and suggest that his other works are poor. Having only read Ender's Game I am in no position to make this assertion.

[Jinglehopper]

Ender's Game was good, especially since it was written in 1980 before the idea of the internet was widely accepted. I found the ending to rock, it was not predicted at all but I guess that's because I'm an idiot.

I also read all his sequels and agree with most of the sentiments here. Shadow Puppets was awful, the rest are simply ok. The ideas in the Ender sequels are interesting but ultimately the adrenaline I got from reading Ender's Game was never duplicated.

I also read another series of his. I forget what it was called, Earthsea or something. Also not that great but he does keep you reading.

and as for the sci-fi vs. fantasy debate. Relax, they are more related than you know.

[Plo Addonnas]

Ender's Game was a perfect stand-alone novel, but the three sequels make it so much better. Because they take place so many years in the future and under such extremely different circumstances, it's really like two different stories. Personally, I thought it was great to be able to read about Ender as an adult. Ender's Game is fast-paced, thought-provoking, and fun to read. The three sequels are filled with less action but a lot more intelectual stimulation. The stories are so different and so good I really don't see why anyone's bitching about it.

[Nebogipfel]

Originally Posted by Plo Addonnas

The three sequels are filled with less action but a lot more intelectual stimulation. The stories are so different and so good I really don't see why anyone's bitching about it.

I just finished the third sequel (Children of the Mind) and the character that really pulled those four together was Jane.

My fave was Xenocide, that book had the most fantantistic ending, far better than the "depressed" ending for Game. Rereading Game for the 3rd time though it becomes more bearable and understood. Remember also that Card wrote Ender's Game in the mid-80s, his concepts of virtual gaming were incredibly advanced for the time (also portable comps were quite rare and rather luggable), not the standard stuff of crime-dramas and parentally-oriented news. My favorite aspect of Card is that he never lets the science get in the way of the story and the characters. He makes no attempt to "immerse" the reader but lets them see natural progression of technology through his characters.

Sorry to ramble but in my mind OSC is the best sci-fi writer of recent decades.

OSC also wrote a sci-fi series that looks like a crossover to me, his Homecoming Series. Personally the first book was never interesting enough for me to bother reading through it or the other 3-7 books.

[gleek]

Originally Posted by Nebogipfel

My favorite aspect of Card is that he never lets the science get in the way of the story and the characters. He makes no attempt to "immerse" the reader but lets them see natural progression of technology through his characters.

i completely agree with this statement and i just want to point out to lacedaemonian that not all scifi literature is inherently based in science. there are times when i wish we could re-name the genre entirely! for example, look at star trek (star trek: the next generation comes quick to mind). here we have a universe that so depends on the science that brings humanity across the galaxy but the majority of the plotlines for ST centered around characters and interaction between humans/aliens. there were always some episodes where all the science gobble-de-gook got in the way, yes, but they were few and far between.like ST, OSC uses science as a vehicle to propel his characters into the plot. he does not depend on it to explain his story.

this is one reason why i put OSC above frank herbert in my line of favorite scifi authors. i always feel that i'm going to get a good read with OSC: character interaction, philosophy, history... he includes all of these. frank herbert, god bless him, went overboard with science and technicalities on way too many books (i.e. the pandora series.. very technical although still a FANTASTIC read).

i know that this thread is very old but i think that lacedaemonian should try the rama series by arthur c. clarke and if you like dune but couldn't get into the minutiae of all the sequels, try the prequels written by his son, brian herbert. they're more character driven than dune (and some hate them because of it) but i thought that they were a fun read and definitely touched heavily on the human condition.

[fungi from Yuggoth]

I enjoyed Ender's Game and its excellent sequel Speaker for the Dead but haven't read much more than that. I heard that much of the rest of his Ender series barring Ender's Shadow went rapidly downhill.

BTW someone mentioned the Earthsea series. This was written by Ursula LeGuin not OSC.

[Chrischa]

I read all the Ender books, I thought the first three books were very good and felt very much like the original series while the rest is too much of a cash-in when OSC ran out of ideas. Especially Children of the Mind is more a sound-board for Card's philosophical idea's then a follow-up, and the Bean series turns into a summary for warfare strategy. (yawn!)

But Card seems to have that tendency of writing good stories when they are about children but having difficulties with the characters once they grow up. Alvin Maker being the prime example, who as said turns into a holy-bean superhuman, but I also found Ender's adult version not complete, nor Ansset from Songmaster.
That being said, he does come up with the best alien species I've ever heard of. Maybe they should employ him as a writer in Star Trek.

[Michael]

I loved the entire series. Couldn't get enough of it.

[cyborg_cinema]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Thoughts invited...

...a thought: perhaps the publisher knew they had a hot ticket and encouraged Card write more.

[Tim Bond]

I liked Enders-Game. A very fun and even at times inspiring read.

I have not felt motivated yet to read these sequels and appreciate the tips about the merit you assert they possess.

If properly attuned to the environment and given a fair opportunity to engage with it - socially as adults are supposed to (but, many cannot) - often children will surprise you with their ability to adapt, and even ability to comprehend implications we automatically assume they would not understand due to our false equation that since they do not make a decision on something that they cannot understand many of the interrelated patterns in what goes on.

Sometimes they understand - sometimes they do not.

Some kids can attain a very high degree of very real maturity at early age. These types can always somehow manage - even with a poor education working against the prospects for adulthood.

Some kids develop academic skill and are classified as 'intelligent' for sake of clear speech and good grades, yet - miss real-life integration with reality and lack maturity or ability to fend for themselves - yet.

Other kids need to wait for maturity and are not even sufficiently educated. Adults should let them enjoy childhood - but, could spend more 'quality' time with them administering to bringing about quality questions in the kid, that the child can pursue out of interest for his improvement. A good inspiring role-model serves very well for this.

Many, and I mean many adults never grow up (they are simply children that look like mature adults) - even possibly have a kid (which they usually neglect or abuse) and house and maybe some work on their side (if lucky) - they remain irresponsible and unthinking and expect little ramification to the actions they take beyond the immediate and are concerned with only consuming the next entertainment. A good six year old can 'know' better than these types.

His story was about kids that were genius or borderline genius. Every genius is different /unique - the thought process very much their own and individual and not secluded to the merely mathematical-linguistic. These kids were also both competitive and would have major issues of maturity to come up with in such a program to avoid 'flaws' at a later stage. Children still need role-models and shaping - not through authority, but, through love and a real interest in them and their interests.

I saw nothing relating to genius or quality shaping of young minds - allot of it instead was dealing with relatively simple authority and group-pack dynamics and leadership. Monkeys have these issues within their groups - dogs do to - this is nothing. A genius is not threatened by any authority (for the merely 'intellegent' - this does not follow) - if they want to disappear - they are gone (dumb can be 'invisible') and if they take action it will be beyond mammal territorial concerns (though they can implicate or involve the use of such) - and can induce fear by the ramifications of what they 'could' do and may acknowledge this to themselves and so optionally may 'trivialize' their activities to any superficial observer. Why would someone who has superior concerns grapple with the goings on of a mob of primates and the extensions of it's leadership?

The book lacked real integration of any strategic thought - it could have used at least some quality in this direction. As for the tactics - they were irrelevant even to the unique environment of 3D zero-gravity - success here would likely look more like modern air warfare than roman formations.

It seemed to me he got his inspiration from pondering his next work over a three teir chessboard with some kid as an opponent and then flipping through a manual on strategy and thinking 'gee' could I bring up the concept of developing superior young minds not bound by conventions in an envisioned possibility of space warfare.

A great idea.

An actual strategist could illuminate many of the dimensions left out in this work, but good strategists are usually most often concernd with the use of strategy in real life (they get busy) than with games or novels.

He is a great writer - I would read it again. He is positive about the potential of relatively typical children in our society and he inspires the emotions and connects with an adult’s maybe forgotten childhood very well. He is a very professional and talented writer and lack of any knowledge on a subject did not preclude excellent entertainment and ability to transmit strong feelings. I will likely read it again for the fun of it - the rest of the books I am not too sure - but, it remains a possibility.

He seems sincere and honest and that goes a long way.