Feb Book Club Discussion: Dune

[dwndrgn]

With the 'voice of command' that we all use when necessary (esp. if you have dogs ) I think that humans react differently to it. With dogs, for example, their immediate reaction to authority like that is to instinctively obey. However, we humans are all tied up in logic and whatever other odd bits clog up our brains, we don't instinctively react - but recognize that authority is needed and follow that in times of stress. Of course, this is my own opinion. What I'm saying is that unless it has been trained into us from an early age (or planted hypnotically), I can't see us going against our own personal thoughts and desires merely on the voice of someone else. I could see how we could be effected by it, so that our own thoughts could come into doubt or if we were on the fence we would tend toward whatever that voice of authority commanded.

I haven't yet decided if Herbert meant this as a complement to women in general or as an insult - that they are manipulative. Or, he might not have meant anything at all. Perhaps he just thought his mother was the most intelligent woman alive and meant to honor her. No idea.

As for the spice - I think at the very least he was trying to show how dangerous monopolies can be.

[littlemissattitude]

This whole idea of using the voice to manipulate fascinates me. I think immediately of the artificially high voice so many people use when the speak to children. I think of the oratorial cadance politicans use (one of the reasons why I am so fascinated with John Edwards, one of the Democratic presidental candidates here in the States, is that he doesn't seem to use that quite as much as the others, at least in the times I've seen him speak on television). I think of Christian preachers; depending on their tradition they either yell a lot, or they put on what I think of as their "pious" voice - very soft and meek-sounding and somewhat akin to the voice used when speaking to children (or, perhaps the classic public-radio-classical-or-jazz-music-announcer voice). An example of someone who used this last type of voice was Mr. Rogers (a children's-show host here in the States; I don't know if he ever went international), and he was indeed also a clergyman.

I think all of these stereotypical voices are used at least in part to manipulate the audiences they are used in front of, be it an audience of one or an audience of hundreds, thousands, or millions. And all of them irritate the crap out of me, because when I hear any of them I can be pretty sure that someone is going to try to talk me into something or out of something.

So, it doesn't seem that far-fetched - in the context of a book like "Dune" - that an organization like the Bene Gesserit would be portrayed as using some kind of voice manipulation technique. I mean, even the ancient Greeks did it, if what I have read is true - at some of locations of oracles there have been found what very well may have been speaking tubes where someone could have hidden and acted as the "voice" of the oracle.

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

Taking a bit of a turn here, but has anyone read Herbert's Pandora trilogy (co-written with Bill Ransome)? Pandora is a nearly totally marine world, the exact opposite of Dune and just as intricately detailed.


An interesting thing about Dune is that for all its complexity and depth, it is at heart a very simple story - taken as the story of Paul Attreides' realisation of his own destiny. Perhaps that is one thing that makes the book work better than some of its sucessors - the human appeal at the core of everything else.

[dwndrgn]

Originally Posted by littlemissattitude

I think all of these stereotypical voices are used at least in part to manipulate the audiences they are used in front of, be it an audience of one or an audience of hundreds, thousands, or millions. And all of them irritate the crap out of me, because when I hear any of them I can be pretty sure that someone is going to try to talk me into something or out of something.

We definitely see (or hear) a lot of this type of thing today and I'm sure it's been going on forever. The thing is, these specific 'voice types' are used to coerce people who are either undecided about an issue or sitting on the fence. They more or less nudge a person in a certain direction, more of a suggestion than a command. The voice commands that Herbert used in Dune were, in fact, commands (at least that seemed the way it was explained) - so that the person being commanded wouldn't have a choice to do anything other than what was being commanded, just as if a man held a gun to my head and said "Vote for Bush" I would have to vote for Bush, even if I didn't want to.

Originally Posted by littlemissattitude

So, it doesn't seem that far-fetched - in the context of a book like "Dune" - that an organization like the Bene Gesserit would be portrayed as using some kind of voice manipulation technique. I mean, even the ancient Greeks did it, if what I have read is true - at some of locations of oracles there have been found what very well may have been speaking tubes where someone could have hidden and acted as the "voice" of the oracle.

It certainly fit with the description of the Bene Gesserit, I was only questioning whether it was a factual possibility in our world of today.

[dwndrgn]

Originally Posted by knivesout

Taking a bit of a turn here, but has anyone read Herbert's Pandora trilogy (co-written with Bill Ransome)? Pandora is a nearly totally marine world, the exact opposite of Dune and just as intricately detailed.

Nope, can't say as I have. I don't think I've even heard of it.

[riffraff]

sorry to interrupt- but what was the thing with the spice about? I read Dune some time ago and I can't remember all the details. Is the spice the thing the desert people have to keep taking and that turns their eyes blue? if so, is the writer drawing a comparison between the spice and addictive substances controlled by large industries, e.g. tobacco?

[littlemissattitude]

My apologies for not having yet put up the promised disucssion about the relationship between feudalism, technology and other influences, and the rise of cities, on the History board, as promised earlier in this thread.

I simply have not been able to find enough material to say much more than I did earlier here. I am still working on locating material less vague than I have so far been able to find in my local library branch. Maybe soon?

[dwndrgn]

Originally Posted by riffraff

sorry to interrupt- but what was the thing with the spice about? I read Dune some time ago and I can't remember all the details. Is the spice the thing the desert people have to keep taking and that turns their eyes blue? if so, is the writer drawing a comparison between the spice and addictive substances controlled by large industries, e.g. tobacco?

Interruptions are welcome here! Yes, the spice is the natural product of the planet that must be continually ingested once you reach a certain point (although there were no clear guidelines, I assumed from the story that once a person's eyes were completely blue, their bodies would deteriorate without the spice.

I could see where Herbert meant this as a sideline argument. However, I felt that it was only a background one - I thought he was making broader statements about monopolies and the distribution of political power. I think he used the addiction as a plot 'pylon' something that he created merely to uphold the plot goals the he was going for. Of course, that's just my opinion!

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

I would agree with dwndrgn. I think the core concept is about monopolies, about control over natural resources. Addiction was a secondary layer. Herbert is a very layered writer, often playing off multiple themes in a single plot element.


Re-visiting this book was a mixed experience. In some ways it was like returning to a place I'd visited and enjoyed long ago. In other ways, there was also that element of dissapointment - 'the tower is not as high as I remembered, the houses not as big...', because I have in many ways grown since I first read the book. None of that is the fault of the book itself, and all in all, I continue to hold it as one of the most important SF works ever. If time has given me a clearer view of its weaknesses or limitations, it has also brought home to me how relevant the central themes are to the currents at play even in our mundane realm.

[mzarynn]

I was wondering... I've seen the sand worm or similar worms in a lot of science fiction/fantasy media such as Beetlejuice, Final Fantasy and Men in Black to name a few. Is Frank Herbert's sand worm the original or just another adaption of something much older? I didn't know if it had any mythological background. Just curious.

[dwndrgn]

I'm not an authority on older sci fi - but I would guess that Herbert's worm was first of the ones you've mentioned, due to its date of publication. I've no idea of any sand worms in other fantasy works prior to Herbert's Dune. Perhaps knivesout can help out here?