4.02: The Other Side - Page 3 - Science Fiction Fantasy Chronicles: forums

Texane · 13th October 2000, 01:04 AM

And the first enlisted man to make it all the way to the top, the first who made it to the Joint Chiefs, when a member of the press got interested and found out that the medals he was wearing were not actual "combat" metals. He then committed suicide; a great loss to the Navy.

I believe my opinion and yours are each side to the same coin.

MythingLink · 13th October 2000, 09:24 AM

We each look at life through the same microscope ... the different magnifications are the different aspects we bring to it, different life experiences, different fundamental beliefs whether they be spiritual or humanitarian.

The military, in its wisdom, wants recruits who are just out of high school or college, who haven't had a chance to develop their own opinions very well or who haven't learned how to question authority reasonably or responsibly ... kids whose logic isn't fully developed. The idea being that they are still in the mindset of saying "Yes, ma,am" to Mom or to the profs making it easier to just transfer that over to "Yes, Drill Sergeant" and "Yes, sir."

Don't get me wrong. I'm military from way back and still am. I support the military in every way I can. However with every large organization, especially one basically dedicated to the art of war, there are going to be things that are inherently debilitating and those things are generally the things that take the longest to change.

I understand the rational behind the training, I can even concur with it, but there has to be a fall back and as it stands right now there isn't anywhere for these young men and women to go when they do start to question.

At the Critical Incident Stress Debriefing for the young man who calmly checked out his rifle and then took it to the barracks and set it up to blow a hole in his own chest the major problem, as seen by the other soldiers in this unit, was that it was damned inconsiderate of him. They had just returned from PT to find the body and now, none of them could get into the barracks to shower and clean up until the investigation was complete.

Now I know that this incident did hit some of those people incredibly hard, but they aren't going to show it ... they aren't going to talk about it because if they do, it's a sign of weakness and they'll be lambasted to death by their peers for it. And it's wrong.

No we don't need a touchy-feely military, but a little humanity, a little empathy, a little understanding would go a long way to making a more complete soldier.

Cheers,

Texane · 13th October 2000, 09:39 AM

The entire issue has been interesting for me, too; close to home, actually. My uncle (like a father to me) is Army/Viet Nam. My cousin (baby brother) went to the Naval Academy, and is now an officer aboard his second nuc sub. During his tenure at the Academy, as he was the older student (?), it became his responsibility for a number of plebes and, of course, now a number of them were women. On top of that, he eventually became a justice on the Honor Court.

I watched my VERY stuffy cousin, brought up through my uncle's eyes and with his values, be required not only to learn respect for women (for those women who could pull their weight; none of our family, male or female, has any respect for women who can't) who had made it to the Academy, but also to stand up for them in the Honor Court, demanding fair treatment for all members.

I love Chuck dearly but I have to admit . . . my little brother has taught me respect for him that I didn't know I had.

Do you know how the press found out that women were going to be allowed to serve aboard the "new" Sea Wolf submarines?

MythingLink · 13th October 2000, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Do you know how the press found out that women were going to be allowed to serve aboard the "new" Sea Wolf submarines?

Haven't heard a word about that but it doesn't surprise me that the press might find out about something like that and then, of course, put their own spin on the issue.

Ah, women in the military ... another biggie of mine and I won't bore people with it.

Cheers,

Texane · 13th October 2000, 01:26 PM

Someone got a look at the blueprints - two different sets of bathrooms, one for the men, one for the women!

SGPflughaupt · 13th October 2000, 06:32 PM

Heres my spin on the whole debate......
(having been raised military,been military,and now civilian.)

The military has its faults,granted,in regards to socialization but many of the same problems exist in the outside world (The ethics of Business). The military's faults,however,sometimes seem worse because they occur in an environment that, by necessity of the art of war, is more rigid or disciplined. How do you teach flexibility to a person that you might have to order to kill and must be able to expect him/her to follow that order? The morality and ethics of the military are more or less the same for the society in whole. The German Army (1930-1945) is a good example. The military reflected the societies belief in obedience to authority even when those actions were contrary to their morals. How did they deal with this conflict between the two? Denial. Most Germans ignored the rumors of atrocities and continued to support the Nazi's because they were in charge. Even the populace near the Extermination Camps did not look closely at what went on there and many were shocked or physically ill at what went on when the allies forced them to walk through the camps at the near end of the war and see for themselves the horror. During the Nuremburg trials the common defense was "I was ordered to do it". That was not so much a "cop out" of responisibly as it was the mindset of the army. Even today, the German society will follow authority and laws to the extent that the idea of crossing against the crosswalk sign even without any traffic doesnt easily occur to them. (This doesnt mean the Germans are so rigid that they dont question authority at times,there was even a german resistance during WWII).

For a military to function during war,for its members to get up and move under fire (a reasonable person would stay down

), and fire back with the intent to kill (we are all taught by society that killing is bad), they must have to some extent, blind obedience.

But the military is part of society and will reflect it in its structure and philosphy (read MEN IN ARMS by Preston,Wise,and Werner for a great discussion on the history of warfare and society from the Persians to the Cold War). This is reflected in areas such as what persons are permitted to service (Minorities and women) to what types of training are given (Our basic training for the infantry man is equal or greater than the special training countries like Iraq and Argentina give their special forces because these countries view troops as cannon fodder <IMO>)

Now back to your original programming.....

Texane · 14th October 2000, 12:41 AM

Any opinion on the type of explosive used on the USS Cole?

MythingLink · 14th October 2000, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Any opinion on the type of explosive used on the USS Cole?

It might be a good idea to take this to another thread in Chit Chat.

Cheers,

SGPflughaupt · 14th October 2000, 06:41 PM

I've said my piece

probably is a good idea,though, to go to chitchat with this.

Back on topic....
I thought the ep showed how Jack,who in the beginning of the episode keeps telling Daniel to "shut up" is able to admit his error without ego getting in the way and continuing to blindly support alliance with the aliens.

It shows that though He might be stubborn at times, he does have a strong sense of ethics and that is probably where he becomes the most stubborn. If he thinks its the 'right' thing to do (defense of Earth,i.e weapons from the civilization of The Otherside or defending another race ,ie Scorched Earth) then it is hard to turn him.

Texane · 14th October 2000, 09:15 PM

Not to mention having to listen to the last rap on the iris . . .

MythingLink · 15th October 2000, 10:58 AM

I agree with SGP, his sense of right and wrong and what is fair is highly developed. Once he's convinced, he's a junk yard dog in defending his belief.

In Learning Curve he sneaks the girl off of the base to show her what childhood is and what she is losing. In Cor-Ai, he stubbornly clings to wanting to rescue Teal'c.

How many others would say that "Sometimes the very young do not always do as their told," is worth taking back to Earth instead of some sort of technology that would make them more powerful?

Cheers,

jsc · 17th October 2000, 02:56 AM

Chit Chat would be honored to have these posts but I think they are best left here so others can read and learn!

jsc, Moderator of Chit Chat.

Thank you, people for a very moving and worth while discussion!

lene morissette · 5th April 2002, 07:43 AM

I missed this ep the first time around. WOW! How mad was Carter?!? She had that look in her eyes that she seems to reserve solely for Freya and Dr McKay (season 5). It was rather funny how the General left and she just stood there glaring at him with the whole base standing behind her watching the whole thing in surprise/shock/bewilderment and O'Neill's face was a picture! once again I say "WOW!"!!!!!!!! How cool was the last 30 seconds of this ep?!?!?

Texane · 6th April 2002, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SGPflughaupt
I've said my piece

probably is a good idea,though, to go to chitchat with this.

Back on topic....
I thought the ep showed how Jack,who in the beginning of the episode keeps telling Daniel to "shut up" is able to admit his error without ego getting in the way and continuing to blindly support alliance with the aliens.

It shows that though He might be stubborn at times, he does have a strong sense of ethics and that is probably where he becomes the most stubborn. If he thinks its the 'right' thing to do (defense of Earth,i.e weapons from the civilization of The Otherside or defending another race ,ie Scorched Earth) then it is hard to turn him.

This is one of the things I will miss (between Jack & Daniel) when Shanks leaves.

skoon · 6th April 2002, 05:49 AM

wow, it's amazing the conversations that can be inspired from a tv episode. Most interesting. The thought that came to my mind often during this ep was Hitler, it's funny someone should mention the Nazis. I myself have no experience with militarr. The closest my family ever came to it is my Opa who was a poor farmer in the Sadaten land in Czechoslovakia & was sent to Russa by Hitler at the very end of the war. I don't defent the Nazis or their beliefs, all I know is that all my father & his family knew & were exosed to was was hunger & that Hitler said was fighting to feed them...shows what propaganda can do. Anyhoo I'm off topic I suppose. I think this episode really made me think & be ...almost affraid. How do you know when you are fighting for the right cause or which is the right side?

13th October 2000, 01:04 AM	#31 (permalink)
Texane Frelling Wicked Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Texas (of course!) Posts: 3,877	And the first enlisted man to make it all the way to the top, the first who made it to the Joint Chiefs, when a member of the press got interested and found out that the medals he was wearing were not actual "combat" metals. He then committed suicide; a great loss to the Navy. I believe my opinion and yours are each side to the same coin.

13th October 2000, 09:24 AM	#32 (permalink)
MythingLink First Prime of ASciFi Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 1,798	We each look at life through the same microscope ... the different magnifications are the different aspects we bring to it, different life experiences, different fundamental beliefs whether they be spiritual or humanitarian. The military, in its wisdom, wants recruits who are just out of high school or college, who haven't had a chance to develop their own opinions very well or who haven't learned how to question authority reasonably or responsibly ... kids whose logic isn't fully developed. The idea being that they are still in the mindset of saying "Yes, ma,am" to Mom or to the profs making it easier to just transfer that over to "Yes, Drill Sergeant" and "Yes, sir." Don't get me wrong. I'm military from way back and still am. I support the military in every way I can. However with every large organization, especially one basically dedicated to the art of war, there are going to be things that are inherently debilitating and those things are generally the things that take the longest to change. I understand the rational behind the training, I can even concur with it, but there has to be a fall back and as it stands right now there isn't anywhere for these young men and women to go when they do start to question. At the Critical Incident Stress Debriefing for the young man who calmly checked out his rifle and then took it to the barracks and set it up to blow a hole in his own chest the major problem, as seen by the other soldiers in this unit, was that it was damned inconsiderate of him. They had just returned from PT to find the body and now, none of them could get into the barracks to shower and clean up until the investigation was complete. Now I know that this incident did hit some of those people incredibly hard, but they aren't going to show it ... they aren't going to talk about it because if they do, it's a sign of weakness and they'll be lambasted to death by their peers for it. And it's wrong. No we don't need a touchy-feely military, but a little humanity, a little empathy, a little understanding would go a long way to making a more complete soldier. Cheers,

13th October 2000, 09:39 AM	#33 (permalink)
Texane Frelling Wicked Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Texas (of course!) Posts: 3,877	The entire issue has been interesting for me, too; close to home, actually. My uncle (like a father to me) is Army/Viet Nam. My cousin (baby brother) went to the Naval Academy, and is now an officer aboard his second nuc sub. During his tenure at the Academy, as he was the older student (?), it became his responsibility for a number of plebes and, of course, now a number of them were women. On top of that, he eventually became a justice on the Honor Court. I watched my VERY stuffy cousin, brought up through my uncle's eyes and with his values, be required not only to learn respect for women (for those women who could pull their weight; none of our family, male or female, has any respect for women who can't) who had made it to the Academy, but also to stand up for them in the Honor Court, demanding fair treatment for all members. I love Chuck dearly but I have to admit . . . my little brother has taught me respect for him that I didn't know I had. Do you know how the press found out that women were going to be allowed to serve aboard the "new" Sea Wolf submarines?

13th October 2000, 01:26 PM	#35 (permalink)
Texane Frelling Wicked Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Texas (of course!) Posts: 3,877	Someone got a look at the blueprints - two different sets of bathrooms, one for the men, one for the women!

13th October 2000, 06:32 PM	#36 (permalink)
SGPflughaupt Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Northwest Arkansas,USA Posts: 184	Heres my spin on the whole debate...... (having been raised military,been military,and now civilian.) The military has its faults,granted,in regards to socialization but many of the same problems exist in the outside world (The ethics of Business). The military's faults,however,sometimes seem worse because they occur in an environment that, by necessity of the art of war, is more rigid or disciplined. How do you teach flexibility to a person that you might have to order to kill and must be able to expect him/her to follow that order? The morality and ethics of the military are more or less the same for the society in whole. The German Army (1930-1945) is a good example. The military reflected the societies belief in obedience to authority even when those actions were contrary to their morals. How did they deal with this conflict between the two? Denial. Most Germans ignored the rumors of atrocities and continued to support the Nazi's because they were in charge. Even the populace near the Extermination Camps did not look closely at what went on there and many were shocked or physically ill at what went on when the allies forced them to walk through the camps at the near end of the war and see for themselves the horror. During the Nuremburg trials the common defense was "I was ordered to do it". That was not so much a "cop out" of responisibly as it was the mindset of the army. Even today, the German society will follow authority and laws to the extent that the idea of crossing against the crosswalk sign even without any traffic doesnt easily occur to them. (This doesnt mean the Germans are so rigid that they dont question authority at times,there was even a german resistance during WWII). For a military to function during war,for its members to get up and move under fire (a reasonable person would stay down ), and fire back with the intent to kill (we are all taught by society that killing is bad), they must have to some extent, blind obedience. But the military is part of society and will reflect it in its structure and philosphy (read MEN IN ARMS by Preston,Wise,and Werner for a great discussion on the history of warfare and society from the Persians to the Cold War). This is reflected in areas such as what persons are permitted to service (Minorities and women) to what types of training are given (Our basic training for the infantry man is equal or greater than the special training countries like Iraq and Argentina give their special forces because these countries view troops as cannon fodder <IMO>) Now back to your original programming.....

14th October 2000, 12:41 AM	#37 (permalink)
Texane Frelling Wicked Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Texas (of course!) Posts: 3,877	Any opinion on the type of explosive used on the USS Cole?

14th October 2000, 06:41 PM	#39 (permalink)
SGPflughaupt Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Northwest Arkansas,USA Posts: 184	I've said my piece probably is a good idea,though, to go to chitchat with this. Back on topic.... I thought the ep showed how Jack,who in the beginning of the episode keeps telling Daniel to "shut up" is able to admit his error without ego getting in the way and continuing to blindly support alliance with the aliens. It shows that though He might be stubborn at times, he does have a strong sense of ethics and that is probably where he becomes the most stubborn. If he thinks its the 'right' thing to do (defense of Earth,i.e weapons from the civilization of The Otherside or defending another race ,ie Scorched Earth) then it is hard to turn him.

14th October 2000, 09:15 PM	#40 (permalink)
Texane Frelling Wicked Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Texas (of course!) Posts: 3,877	Not to mention having to listen to the last rap on the iris . . .

15th October 2000, 10:58 AM	#41 (permalink)
MythingLink First Prime of ASciFi Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 1,798	I agree with SGP, his sense of right and wrong and what is fair is highly developed. Once he's convinced, he's a junk yard dog in defending his belief. In Learning Curve he sneaks the girl off of the base to show her what childhood is and what she is losing. In Cor-Ai, he stubbornly clings to wanting to rescue Teal'c. How many others would say that "Sometimes the very young do not always do as their told," is worth taking back to Earth instead of some sort of technology that would make them more powerful? Cheers,

17th October 2000, 02:56 AM	#42 (permalink)
jsc God Like Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Los Angeles, California,U.S.A. Posts: 4,353	Chit Chat would be honored to have these posts but I think they are best left here so others can read and learn! jsc, Moderator of Chit Chat. Thank you, people for a very moving and worth while discussion!

5th April 2002, 07:43 AM	#43 (permalink)
lene morissette I'm BACK!!!! Yay! Hiya! Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: I live in Manchester, England Posts: 309	I missed this ep the first time around. WOW! How mad was Carter?!? She had that look in her eyes that she seems to reserve solely for Freya and Dr McKay (season 5). It was rather funny how the General left and she just stood there glaring at him with the whole base standing behind her watching the whole thing in surprise/shock/bewilderment and O'Neill's face was a picture! once again I say "WOW!"!!!!!!!! How cool was the last 30 seconds of this ep?!?!?

6th April 2002, 05:49 AM	#45 (permalink)
skoon Official keeper of Narim! Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: British Columbia, CANADA Posts: 4,342	wow, it's amazing the conversations that can be inspired from a tv episode. Most interesting. The thought that came to my mind often during this ep was Hitler, it's funny someone should mention the Nazis. I myself have no experience with militarr. The closest my family ever came to it is my Opa who was a poor farmer in the Sadaten land in Czechoslovakia & was sent to Russa by Hitler at the very end of the war. I don't defent the Nazis or their beliefs, all I know is that all my father & his family knew & were exosed to was was hunger & that Hitler said was fighting to feed them...shows what propaganda can do. Anyhoo I'm off topic I suppose. I think this episode really made me think & be ...almost affraid. How do you know when you are fighting for the right cause or which is the right side?