Experienced help needed

[Psyloke]

Hi all. I recently finished a 120,000 word novel and began sending it out a little while back (Posted some of the prologue in the critique page). Here's my problem: I sent the MS to only one publisher of choice, and then about 20 copies to agents. All of the agents turned me down with varying degrees of "no thanks" but the one publisher of fantasy books I really enjoy had this to say:

I’m the assistant editor at *****. We’ve all finally had the chance to look at your submission, The Shadowed Path. Unfortunately, we’re not going to be able to proceed with this novel. However, first I want to say that it is clear that you can write well. This was a much better quality of writing than the majority of submissions we’ve had. There was good pacing, and strong description. It was the general set up to this story that we couldn’t get excited about, the world, although different, wasn’t likeable, personally. Also, the story wasn’t as layered as we’d have liked. Having said all this, I would most definitely take a look at any other fantasy submissions you had, or wish to send in the future. As I said, your writing skills are strong.

Very best wishes,


-- What is frustrating (and I apprecate this is quite a good response) is that their opionion was baised on reading just a few sample chapters and the Synopsis. When they say the story wasn't layered enough, of course they'd have that idea since stories rarely split into complicated sub-plots in the second chapter, and they asked for only a One-page synopsis in which I had to struggle to tell only the basic story, never mind all the "layers".

So either I'm misreading what the word layer means in this context, or I need some advice on how to cram the main plot-line and the rest of the web of the story arc into ONE page. Any ideas?

[KID A]

I think just about every member on this board knows how frustrating it is to have people try and judge your work based on a few "sample" chapters. I may not be an expert (I'm anything but, really) but I think a few good tips are:
1. Beef up your first few chapters; draw in your reader.
2. Perhaps flesh out your world a little, if it seems somewhat bland or unexciting.
3. Write a synopsis that compliments your work. If that was all the publisher had to go by to judge the entirety of your manuscript, then there's a good chance it just wasn't flattering enough.
4. This is definately the hardest, but certainly the most valuable tip. Take a good, hard look at your book, and ask yourself if you think it is as good as you really want it (need it) to be. Before I sent out my proposal, I did exactly this and ended up scrapping and completely re-writing the first 250 pages of my book, and of course after my proposal was accepted, the agent immediately requested (you guessed it) the first few chapters. He's now reading my entire manuscript (fingers crossed till they bleed) and I wonder if he would have accepted it if I hadn't made that huge change, which, after some deep thinking, I concluded was relatively sub-par.
Anyway, the honest best of luck with "The Shadowed Path", Psyloke.

[SJAB]

Originally Posted by Psyloke

Having said all this, I would most definitely take a look at any other fantasy submissions you had, or wish to send in the future. As I said, your writing skills are strong.

Take a good hard look at this line. File the editor's name away. Your writing style has caught someone's interest. No mean feat at all, you should be pleased as punch about it. Yes, this novel didn't catch them, but the next one???

Get writing, put into your next manuscript everything you have learned from this one and when you have it ready you know where to send it. Don't give up on the other, either. It can wait in the back draw, it will get sold at some point.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Consider the synopsis a test of your writing skill -- your ability to get some complicated ideas across in a compelling way in as few words as possible.

And experienced editors usually can tell a lot from a relatively small sample -- that is their job. Of course the assistant editor probably isn't that experienced, but it's obvious that other more senior editors have been part of the process. (You might want to think about the fact that you don't have any trouble accepting that he/she could reach all those favorable conclusions from three chapters and a synopsis; it's just the negatives you doubt.)

[Psyloke]

Originally Posted by SJAB

Take a good hard look at this line. File the editor's name away. Your writing style has caught someone's interest. No mean feat at all, you should be pleased as punch about it. Yes, this novel didn't catch them, but the next one???

Don't misunderstand this email made my day! I was grinning from ear to ear! It might not be an acceptance but it's great to know it wouldn't be an impossible feat to think one day I might actually publish if I can beef up my story.

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

(You might want to think about the fact that you don't have any trouble accepting that he/she could reach all those favorable conclusions from three chapters and a synopsis; it's just the negatives you doubt.)

Well of course. I want my writing (and submissions) to be the best I can possibly make them so it's logical that the negative's are what I should work on more than any strong points so I can be a better all round writer. And it's not that I doubt the negative points, I understand what they're saying, I just wondered how I could've explained more of a complex story on one page. But it's true what you say about the synopsis, I'll have to re-read it (after distancing myself from it for a while I think) and try and bring in more complexity without losing readability or adding to the size... somehow.

Thanks for the advice... now to get back to writing.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Psyloke

Hi all. I recently finished a 120,000 word novel and began sending it out a little while back (Posted some of the prologue in the critique page). Here's my problem: I sent the MS to only one publisher of choice, and then about 20 copies to agents. All of the agents turned me down with varying degrees of "no thanks" but the one publisher of fantasy books I really enjoy had this to say:

I’m the assistant editor at *****. We’ve all finally had the chance to look at your submission, The Shadowed Path. Unfortunately, we’re not going to be able to proceed with this novel. However, first I want to say that it is clear that you can write well. This was a much better quality of writing than the majority of submissions we’ve had. There was good pacing, and strong description. It was the general set up to this story that we couldn’t get excited about, the world, although different, wasn’t likeable, personally. Also, the story wasn’t as layered as we’d have liked. Having said all this, I would most definitely take a look at any other fantasy submissions you had, or wish to send in the future. As I said, your writing skills are strong.

Very best wishes,


-- What is frustrating (and I apprecate this is quite a good response) is that their opionion was baised on reading just a few sample chapters and the Synopsis. When they say the story wasn't layered enough, of course they'd have that idea since stories rarely split into complicated sub-plots in the second chapter, and they asked for only a One-page synopsis in which I had to struggle to tell only the basic story, never mind all the "layers".

So either I'm misreading what the word layer means in this context, or I need some advice on how to cram the main plot-line and the rest of the web of the story arc into ONE page. Any ideas?

If you're in the UK and sending out to 20 agents with a SFF book, then already your targeting was probably poor - I only know of 8 agencies that specifically request SFF manuscripts, and although others will, generally they stick to the markets they know best.

The editors note is encouraging, though - the impression is that if an editor takes the time to make a more personalised reply, then your work has reached a standard that's good enough to get their attention.

At this point my personal recommendation would be to reconsider your target - check out this list:
http://www.chronicles-network.com/fo...d-fantasy.html

You may also want to pay for some editing of your first few chapters, to help find how to make your novel stronger - someone such as John Jarrold perhaps.

2c.

[Psyloke]

I sent my MS to all the agents in that list, did searches on the net and went through Writers&Artists yearbook and called agencies who didn't overtly say they wouldn't accept fantasy.. all those who said they'd consider it I sent, which amounted to close to 20 although I haven't counted. One was in the States via email and was a member of AAR.

Some of the agents in the linked list also wrote encouraging replies but were rejections nonetheless.

And while i'd love to have someone edit my novel frankly I couldn't afford it (just moved house) but maybe in the future.

[I, Brian]

Well, in that case, it sounds like you had a pretty good stab at it - and if you received encouraging replies from the editors (ie, rejection slip 2) then it may well be that your writing is almost at the standard, just not quite.

I certainly appreciate the disruption and costs involved in moving house, but as before, my personal opinion is that if you can get an experienced editor to help you push the book to a new level that could mean acceptance, then that could be a worthwhile investment.

I sincerely hope you keep pushing on this once you've got a bit more settled - it sounds like you're beating most of the competition, so hopefully a bit more push could even get you published. Please do keep us informed on this.

[mosaix]

This thread by Psyloke raises a question that I've often wondered about.

Psyloke, are you tempted to edit the sory along the lines that editor suggested and re-submit it?

Editors, do you pass comments about stories expecting authors to take them to heart, change the story and re-submit it? Do you welcome that or wish you hadn't commented in the first place? Sometimes do you resist the temptation to pass comment knowing that it will mean a re-submission in a month or two and another rejection?

I can see that if an editor is tempted to pass comment or offer advice it could just turn into a spiral of rejection and re-submission.

There must be a dividing line between an absolutely hopeless story and one, that with a little tweeking, could make it. Would a publisher take the step, offer a bit of encouragement, in the hope that something worthwhile may emerge, or isn't it worth it?

[mistri]

I used to be an editorial assistant (which isn't very high-up in the publishing world, so take this with a pinch of salt) and had to read/reject a *lot* of slush.

I would say that unless an editor specifically asks you to re-submit that story after following their advice - don't.

A novel could have several faults and yet an editor might only mention a few of them in a rejection letter. It's near-impossible to cover off everything that might be good or bad in a book. So some writers will immediately dash off revisions for the problems that are mentioned and send it straight back to the editor, assuming it's now perfect. That's simply not the case - most editors will just groan at receiving a once-rejected MS again.

Most books (in my experience) are rejected for - despite often being competently written - just not having that extra spark. You can't revise that better. That's why I would often give the advice to resubmit with a fresh manuscript in my rejection letters if I thought a writer was promising (or could be, with a different book). Editors want to know you have several books in you - not just a single one that you'll stubbornly over-revise for years.

This doesn't mean editors never ask for revisions of course. If they think a manuscript would be publishable with a few changes, they will ask you to resubmit the work in clear language (I would hope).

Nearly all the slush authors I bought during my time as an editorial assistant went through revisions first.

ETA: After receiving a great rejection letter (like the one at the top), while it may not be wise to resubmit without a request, you can at least take heart that your MS does have strengths and another publisher/editor/agent may love it

[mosaix]

That's what I suspected. Thanks Mistri.

[Psyloke]

Originally Posted by mistri

Most books (in my experience) are rejected for - despite often being competently written - just not having that extra spark. You can't revise that better. That's why I would often give the advice to resubmit with a fresh manuscript in my rejection letters if I thought a writer was promising (or could be, with a different book). Editors want to know you have several books in you - not just a single one that you'll stubbornly over-revise for years.

I suspect that's the case with this novel which is why I wasn't thinking of re-submitting this novel to the same publisher even if/when I revise it- if they were to accept another story that might change things and perhaps they'd be more willing to work with me on this one.

The way I read that email suggests to me that the story was the issue, not my writing style, but also that they'd be willing to look at New work, not the same book altered.

-Today I wrote a very short email back to the assistant editor just to thank him for his advice and to let him know I have more work in the pipline... he wrote back later that same day and again showed his interest at anything new I managed to finish... but also he elaborated on why he didn't consider the novel the right stuff for him:

"There are, of course, so many things to consider to make a novel work commercially. I think in terms of it being ‘layered’, I was referring to the amount of detail the world possessed – in cultural terms, not specifically the plots involved. It’s one of the things that, for example, a writer such as Steven Erikson does well, and even Robert Jordan. You get a feel for depth and sophistication of the culture and world, without being overloaded, and it’s fully immersive. It’s a difficult thing to pull off, too, and one of the many things that makes fantasy writing difficult. "

so there you go... it wasn't even the plot -as I'd thought initially- but was the amount of detail in the book, or lack thereof (which I thought i'd pulled off since I didn't want to do a Tolkien-esk bog-the-reader-down-in-detail story)

I suppose also each editor/publisher have their own tastes and likes/dislikes like the rest of us. So I'll keep trying with other publishers while remembering this one for any new work I complete.

[mosaix]

The e-mail was an excellent idea Psyloke - maintaining contact and getting more info.

The editor's meaning of 'layers' is interesting as well - perhaps what I would term 'background'.

Good luck.