Selling to publishers...

[KID A]

Hi all, I'm new to the forums, and was just wondering if I could get your help on a topic I know many authors are touchy about, so I'll word my question carefully.
I currently have a manuscript being checked out by an agent (I sent it off just under a month ago) and am preparing to take some leaps in my life (house, new computer that actually works etc.) which will - of course - require money, and as it is I am not sitting too comfortably financially. So, assuming that all goes well in the way of agents and publishers, what sort of immediate financial support do you think I'll receive? I must now stress that I never wrote my book for any financial gain, however, given my current situation, any added capital from my work would be more than helpful. It is an epic fantasy, approximately 370,000 words in length, and is one of a four-part series. So, assuming it was to hit the mainstream market and follow an average sales path from there (I know I'm being optimistic here) what sort of immediate financial support would I receive (could I live off it?) and what periodic support would ensue over the coming months/ years? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Doctor Sax]

John will certainly be able to give you a clearer idea of what first time authors are getting in advances these days, but I fear the answer will be rather depressing and he'll advise you to either not give up the day job - or get one, quick.

[Teresa Edgerton]

John can give you an accurate idea of what you can expect from UK publishers, but in the meantime I can tell you something about the US. (Your prospects in Australia are unlikely to be any better than either of those.)

If you are exceptionally lucky and your book is exceptionally good, you might get an offer from a major publisher in about six months. It is far more likely to take much, much longer -- this is assuming that you sell the book at all -- because things move slowly in publishing, and even if the first editor who reads it is absolutely blown away, he or she will still have to pass it around to other people within the company and get their support before a final decision is made.

But let's say that you get the offer in about six months. It will take the publishing company a couple of more months (at least) to get the contract out. After you sign it, six weeks to three months before you get the first half of your advance. You'll get more money after you revise and edit the book to their standards -- this will be done on their time not on yours, because first someone has to tell you what needs doing and that, too, could take months. (Even though books are getting humongously long, 370,000 words is enormous, and you will almost certainly have to find a way to divide your series up into more books, or else ruthlessly cut this one.) So now we are well over a year, and all the money you have received will in all likelihood total quite a bit less than $10,000. (Forget what you have read about first time writers who get six figure advances. That doesn't happen in the SF/Fantasy genre.)

If you sell to a small press or go the self-publication route, things may move a lot more swiftly, but the money at this point will be far less, and you may, additionally, have been required to kick in a few thousand dollars of your own.

But continuing with the best case scenario that a major publisher loves the book and buys it: It will take at least 18 months from contract to publication. Even if your book is the next Harry Potter, it will probably be another year before you start seeing royalties. This all adds up to three or more years from the time you send the book out to a publisher (remember, this is if you are exceptionally lucky and have written something extraordinarily good) before you begin to be rich -- assuming you ever do.

So no, unfortunately, you should not expect, or even hope, for your book to provide any relief for your immediate financial difficulties.

[Green Knight]

Could not agree more. And that is an awful lot of awfully big 'Ifs' too.

Not to be flippant, but one would be better off buying Lottery tickets. Someone wins that every week. A J K Rowling-type phenomenon comes along once in a blue moon.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by Green Knight

And that is an awful lot of awfully big 'Ifs' too.

Absolutely. And since this was the best case scenario on every one of those big If's, the middle ground is not too encouraging either -- at least not in terms of Kid A's question.

If you write for the love of what you are doing, first and foremost, no one can take away your payoff on that. (Although money is nice, too, and can buy you more time to write.)

[KID A]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

If you write for the love of what you are doing, first and foremost, no one can take away your payoff on that. (Although money is nice, too, and can buy you more time to write.)

That's certainly my attitude; I love writing, and I'll continue to do it even if it never finds an audience. I suppose it'd just be nice to think that one day the work that I so love doing could put me in a more comfortable financial position, which is (I am quite sure) how the rest of you feel also. However, I certainly won't be giving up any day jobs I might have anytime soon, even if all does go well with agents and publishers. As for dividing my manuscript up into two, that certainly occured to me, yet it simply isn't possible as such an act would be very disruptive to the narrative flow (you'll need to read the book to see what I mean). Surely a twelve-hundred-plus page book is marketable? Personally, I tend to hunt down the larger books in the epic fantasy genre, for they always seem more... well, epic. In truth, I figured its size would be a selling point to audiences, or do you not agree?

[Teresa Edgerton]

I don't think 370,000 words would come out anywhere close to 1200 pages. But no, I don't think it would be easy to market such a book at all. You have to consider the cost of paper, which the publisher is going to have to figure into the price. A 370,000 word book would have to be sold at an exorbitant price, and that's a big risk for people to take when laying out their money for something by a new writer.

Also, if the book is too big, it can't be sold in mass market paperback (either as an original, or after first coming out in hardcover or trade paperback) because once a book reaches a certain size a paperback book would break it's binding. So an editor would take that into consideration when deciding to buy your book. (And if they did buy the book and decided to divide the book themselves, with an eye merely to the size, when it came time to bring it out in mass market, you might like their choice of where to break things off a lot less than your own.)

I very much doubt that it would be impossible to break up the book into two without destroying the narrative flow. You will know best if that could be done as the book is now; but with some restructuring and rethinking these things are usually possible. You never know about these things until you try, but if you set your mind to the task of dividing the book you might surprise yourself. (Especially if an editor says to either divide it or cut it down ruthlessly.) Sometimes, the very thing you're sure can't be done without spoiling the book turns out to improve it, because in rethinking and reworking it you find new ways to fix some of the flaws that baffled you before.

When I sold my first book, there was something that the editor asked me to change that I told her, "Oh no, I could never do that." She didn't insist -- perhaps because she had enough faith in me to believe that I would come around on my own and see the wisdom of making that particular change -- and after a few days I suddenly realized that there was a way to do it and make other aspects of the book better at the same time.

[KID A]

Sorry I haven't responded in a while, but I've been quite ill for the past week or so. Anyway, thanks for the replies; it has made me reconsider a few things about my manuscript, and about publishing. As you rightly pointed out, Teresa, 370,000 words doesn't equal 1200 pages or there abouts, as I discovered when I rechecked my manuscript. As it happens, my initial post and the figures I gave regarding word count were only based on memory, which has just reaffirmed its ability to be misguiding. In any case, I can now confirm the word count to be just a tad over 450,000 words. So I suppose it is fair to say that if it is likely a 370,000 word manuscript will be split up by publishers, then I suppose that a 450,000 word one has no chance of being left in one piece. A pity, really, yet publishers are businesses, and profits are therefore their primary concern. This being the case, does that mean that if I am to make it to the publishers, I (and hopefully my agent) will be working to sell/publish two separate books, as opposed to one? This being the case, what possible plusses and minuses are there to this?
Thank you again for your replies

[I, Brian]

If it's any consolation, my fantasy epic is still sitting on the shelf at 750,000 words - but I've already decided that to be published I'll probably have to destructively edit it down to around 150,000.

However, I also recognise that it will be a stronger and more readable story in doing so.

So best of luck with that.

[Teresa Edgerton]

I find it hard to believe that a 750,000 word manuscript doesn't have any climaxes or turning points that would (if you looked at it with a fresh eye, or found someone to do it for you) serve as a reasonable place to divide the story. If there isn't, then your book may (note that I say may) be poorly structured. In which case, a reworking could improve it.

Publishing is a business, but paper and glue are what they are, and as I said, too big a book could limit the format in which a publisher might choose to bring it out. Not an absolute barrier to publication, but it doesn't help your chances. If the book is a little slow, or if there are other problems, that could be the final nail in your coffin, so to speak. If the book is incredibly wonderful and has no other flaws, a publisher might find a way. If you believe the book is really extraordinary, then don't tamper with it. If you think it could be improved in some areas, you need to restructure it and/or cut it down. (Which could, although you don't see it now, offer opportunities for improvement.)

The idea that great art exists without restrictions is, in my opinion, false. It's the tension between the artist's vision and the limitations of the medium (be that words and paper, paint on canvas, the range of the human voice, or any other medium) that forces the artist to fully extend his or her talents, to reach inside and pull out the very best that he/she has to offer. Real art is adaptable -- so is hack work. It's everything in between that tends to be set in stone.

edit -- I'm not sure what you mean about the pluses and minuses of selling the book as two volumes instead of one. Didn't you say it was already going to be part of a series? The dynamics of that won't change just because four books become five.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

I find it hard to believe that a 750,000 word manuscript doesn't have any climaxes or turning points that would (if you looked at it with a fresh eye, or found someone to do it for you) serve as a reasonable place to divide the story. If there isn't, then your book may (note that I say may) be poorly structured. In which case, a reworking could improve it.

Oh, it was very much over-written. And I would have one very strong novel than 5 weak ones.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Everything I said goes for 450,000, too.

Long books have to have emotional hills and valleys, and mini-resolutions along the way. If it all goes along at the same pace, readers will tire of it; not matter how fast paced, it will become monotonous. If it takes more than 400,000 words to steadily build to a single climax, then it's probably starting out too slow.

Take something like LOTR, originally written (and often read) as a continuous story. There are plenty of climaxes, turning points, and big scenes along the way (and some people -- I'm not one of them -- still find it slow-going). It wasn't damaged at all by being divided into three books.

And if a book doesn't divide neatly in the middle, 450,000 words is long enough that cutting it into thirds (if that happens to be better for the story) would still yield three good size books.

Brian, strange as it may sound, underwritten and overwritten can look a lot alike. Sometimes it's not about how much detail, description, and background you give the reader, it's whether or not it's the right information.

[KID A]

750,000 words - wow! Cutting off 600,000 words seems a little excessive, though. Anyway, Teresa, when I mentioned the "plusses and minuses" I was mostly referring to the marketability of the book(s), and whether or not it is recognized by the publishers as one book of two parts, or two books of one series (on contract it would surely have to be recognized as one or the other). Also, would a simultaneous release of two books on one date (or two close release dates, say half a year apart) be a little overwhelming, for little ol' me? My final concern was whether or not the need to buy two separate parts to have what is (regardless of how I edit it) essentially one book would act as a deterrent to the readers.
As for the reaccurring suggestion of intense editing, while it is an understandable option for many, I really feel that every page is important to the overall story, and that if I was to drop any large number of pages it would only destroy that sense of depth and realism I have spent so many years trying to create. It is an epic fantasy, and there will be those who'll refrain from buying it due to its size, yet it is what it is and I'd sooner cut my arm off than throw half of the book away due to its size. It's not a fast-paced, action-packed novel, yet it reaches its due climax and keeps the reader occupied with smaller side-stories and unanswered mysteries, and maintains a fairly smooth pace that - to any accomplished reader - is neither tedious nor hasty, remaining (hopefully) entertaining while simultaneously delivering the required amount of realism and detail. While I won't dare to suggest it's as good, simply speaking in terms of scope and realism, I would compare it to Jordan's Wheel of Time, and perhaps also some of Martin's books. Both of these authors manage great length and detail while managing to keep a fairly significant audience engaged, which is what I'd ultimately like to achieve.

[the_faery_queen]

i like really big series, myself. my own first novel was 270,000, but i had to split it into two and i lost a fair bit in editing. thing si never thought i would loose. you have to look at it objectively, i do find it hard to imagine that every single page is that neccessary. i imagine even jordan and martin loose some bits in editing. and i think if you do want it published, you have to be prepared to make those sacrifices. that's what it comes down to in the end, if you want it enough, you ahve to make sacrifices. is this art, or is this a career? for me, it's a career. i want this, so i cut bits, and will cut more, if advised to (tho i may argue if i don't agree with some of it) and i think that's how you have to see it. that some things will go if asked to, for that contract, for getting it out there. cos if you come across as someone who won't cut anything, you may not get any publisher. i have read that you have to appear agreeable to get ahead, esp when starting out.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by KID A

As for the reaccurring suggestion of intense editing, while it is an understandable option for many, I really feel that every page is important to the overall story, and that if I was to drop any large number of pages it would only destroy that sense of depth and realism I have spent so many years trying to create.

That's an entirely understandable point - some writers create a long manuscript that desperately needs it chopping down to a fraction for publishing.

Some writers create a long manuscript that simply need the story splitting up into distinct novels.

In either instance, it entirely depends upon the quality of writing, and looking back I think it's fair to say in my instance I created something badly overwritten.

Long novels and extended series are certainly a good idea, but I would certainly recommend you consider paying for the opinion of a editor before submission - someone like John Jarrold should have reasonable fees on just a couple of chapters.