LOTR: Racist?

[Raynor]

Are all white people good in LotR? The "race" that fell the most are the numenoreans, and they represent the height of what one would call the white society in Middle-Earth. Nevertheless, they resorted to oppressing, making human sacrifices of disidents (even of their own), slayed each other, became mad and simply represent the Second Fall of Men (cf Letter #131). On the other hand, the woses, (most likely the racial opposite of the numenoreans, though they were too eligible for becoming inhabitants of the Westernesse, due to their participation in the War of Wrath) maintain their wisdom and their path, and can be shown as an example to the heighty and mighty numenoreans.

And even in LotR, we have "white" people continuously behave in an evil way; even besides the white characters that stray away from the good path, we also have the people of Gondor falling to evil during the reign of Aragorn's son (as told in The New Shadow, HoME XII). Here is an interesting passage from that story, that should show that "white people" are by no means better:

Since we are dealing with Men it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless - while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors - like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going round doing damage.

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[Twitchr4ng3r]

no, i think he used the darker colours for the bad guys because dark colours are usually thought of as non-pure or evil ( to an extreme) and white is thought of as pure.
imagine a guy with a black cloak and a guy with a white cloak.
could you tell easily which one was meant to be the evil one? yes.

[pyan]

Like Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker.

[Raynor]

Light isn't always a symbol of good; in The stairs of Cirit Ungol chapter, TTT, Minas Morgul has an "unholy" light about it:

Paler indeed than the moon ailing in some slow eclipse was the light of it now, wavering and blowing like a noisome exhalation of decay, a corpse-light, a light that illuminated nothing

We also have the white hand of Saruman, and, on the other hand, the black stone of Erech. As you see, nothing is black and white about good and evil

[dustinzgirl]

I just found this thread, so forgive me if I am repeating----

I do not think it is racism. This is a good vs evil story, not culture or people vs. people. Humans have always oriented white with good power and black with evil power. Also, you have too look at the era it was written in. Had tolkien wrote his masterpiece in this time frame, he might have considered a different color, the impact of it and so on, but he wrote this in the 50's, and it was not a media concern like it is now. I doubt Tolkein even thought of it in that manner. We think of it like that today because we live in an era of being politically correct and color concius. (no I can't spell that word blah).

I feel that people in this era look for things to complain about and blame and find cynicism in. I mean, its just a story. The way Chronicles of Narnia is just a story, regardless of the religious pressure from religious people.

On that note, does anyone besides me think we look too hard for reasons to protest something?

[jackokent]

Originally Posted by dustinzgirl

On that note, does anyone besides me think we look too hard for reasons to protest something?

I agree. There's enough real issues in the world without going looking for them.

[Fightin gobbo]

Why care? if tolken was a racist or a sexist? im very much against sexism but if he was its his opinion! his problem and part of freedom of speech is that if he wants to write a book in that way hes free too-If the book had been infact racist! and his intentions where racist! yet the book was as it is now

would you stop reading and liking his story?
The easterlings or the haradrim were not white either(even though they where seen as evil in the book) they where described to be very semetic

if you choose not to like a book because the writer was a racist,sexist or homophobe-fine! good on ya! but dont crap on about how bad the book is
just dont read it!

i believe political correctness is being taken to far and in the wrong way
people are still hurt because they are guilted into not being proud of their heritage(in the case of white americans) just because there where events in the history of that people DOES NOT! make their heritage bad or evil or somthing to be ashamed of! and i think this is what alot of racists and neo-nazis and such try to get across is that this does happen! If the lord of the rings was written with racist or sexist intentions-who gives a ****?? fine you dotn have to liek or agree with it then dont read the book but dont try and ruin it for others

[Paige Turner]

Originally Posted by dustinzgirl

On that note, does anyone besides me think we look too hard for reasons to protest something?

I'm pretty sure I'm offended. I just have to figure out why and by whom.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Paige Turner

I'm pretty sure I'm offended. I just have to figure out why and by whom.

Well, let's face it, Paigie... these days, there's such a plethora of choices!

[carrie221]

Both of you are impossible

And just for the record I do not believe that he was a racist... his writing just reflected the time and place he was from. I think also the "color" differance just had to do with the traditional views of good and bad from fairy tales and such. The Blond handsome hero and the ugly bad guys.

I do think that some people are reading too much into this. But on the other hand maybe I missed something in his writing where he spouted off racist ideals.

[Paige Turner]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

Well, let's face it, Paigie... these days, there's such a plethora of choices!

Wha? Why, you… That's it. You're on the list.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Paige Turner

Wha? Why, you… That's it. You're on the list.

My lord! You mean I wasn't already? Now I'm offended!!!

[Briareus Delta]

Originally Posted by carrie221

Both of you are impossible

And just for the record I do not believe that he was a racist... his writing just reflected the time and place he was from. I think also the "color" differance just had to do with the traditional views of good and bad from fairy tales and such. The Blond handsome hero and the ugly bad guys.

I do think that some people are reading too much into this. But on the other hand maybe I missed something in his writing where he spouted off racist ideals.

I agree totally with Carrie221. Tolkien was simply following in a long tradition of story telling - Black Witches are evil, White Witches are good; cowboy villains always wore a black hat etc. However, he did thankfully depart from the 'blond handsome hero' bit - Aragorn is clearly not that, even though Hollywood refused to acknowledge that in the films (what a surprise!).

When Aragorn is first introduced he is described as a 'strange-looking, weather-beaten man'. Then later, there is Frodo's comment that 'I think one of his (Saurons) spies would....seem fairer and feel fouler'.

Sorry, I've digressed off the main point a bit. But at least Tolkien gives hope to those, like me, who are aesthetically-challenged!! Oh no, now I've offended the beautiful people...........

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Briareus Delta

Sorry, I've digressed off the main point a bit. But at least Tolkien gives hope to those, like me, who are aesthetically-challenged!! Oh no, now I've offended the beautiful people...........

Well, I'd agree that Aragorn was not quite so ... ambiguous in appearance as I always pictured him. And, as I've argued quite a bit here, no, I don't think there was any conscious racism as such... though one can read it into the book. (And a note on offending the beautiful people: Have you ever read Ellison's "Eyes of Dust"?....)

[Briareus Delta]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

Well, I'd agree that Aragorn was not quite so ... ambiguous in appearance as I always pictured him. And, as I've argued quite a bit here, no, I don't think there was any conscious racism as such... though one can read it into the book. (And a note on offending the beautiful people: Have you ever read Ellison's "Eyes of Dust"?....)

No, haven't read it. Tell me more....