LOTR: Racist?

[jerchar]

Quote Nemogbr: "Also he wanted a more realistic answer to the prophesy cannot be killed by no man......hehhe

Being killed by a woman and hobbit was certainly a lot better"

Oh yes this was definitely my favorite scene in ROK

[littlemissattitude]

Yes. That was a good scene, though not my favorite.

As to the question of racism - I made a point of watching out for this in both ROTK and TTT. As far as I could see, the bad guys were of many different colors. I think the person makings these charges of racism was just trying to create an issue.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by nemogbr

My two cents or penny....lol

Tolkien was a actually a man who had minimal relations with women. We can alreay see this by how a woman like Eowyn actually takes a more late-twenthieth century outlook on the book.

Also he wanted a more realistic answer to the prophesy cannot be killed by no man......hehhe

Being killed by a woman and hobbit was certainly a lot better...

I'm not sure if it has a mythological root - but it certainly came up before in literature - in the Shakespeare play, MacBeth is told that he cannot be slain by anyone born of a woman. Then along comes MacDuff, who was not actually born to a woman, but instead lifted from her by a caesarian.

[nemogbr]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I'm not sure if it has a mythological root - but it certainly came up before in literature - in the Shakespeare play, MacBeth is told that he cannot be slain by anyone born of a woman. Then along comes MacDuff, who was not actually born to a woman, but instead lifted from her by a caesarian.

I read somewhere that Tolkien actually hated that part about the play. He felt that a breach, a man torn from a womans womb, is not actually the correct answer to the prophecy.
He ended up with a woman killing the Nazgul that cannot be slain by a man. Wonder what would have happened if Macduff was a woman in disguise?hehehehe

[Shoegaze99]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Someone pointed out on another forum - in Return of the King, in the moment before the battle at the gates of Mordor, the heroes and villains are arrayed...

...and the good guys are all white skinned, and the bad guys have all got brown or black skin.

This has been a matter of discussion for some 30 years. Punch “Tolkien” and “racism” or “racist” into Google and browse the Usenet archives and you’ll find scores of lengthy, heated discussions on the topic.

I’ll go on record as thinking it an absurd, utterly ridiculous question. On many levels.

(The scene during which Sam ponders the dead body of one of the Haradrim alone should be indication that Tolkien was conscious of the humanity of the people Sauron corrupted ... but that’s not what the story is about, and hence it’s not a focus)

Is this is a form of racism?

The short answer is “no.”

If we say that Tolkien is clear of the charge, then can we say the same about Peter Jackson and the films? After all, he could have had a few black humans running around with the good guys - or would that be breaking something of the book in view of political correctness?

It would not be breaking from the book in the name of political correctness, it would be doing something pointless for the sake of political correctness.

And that would be far worse than the “crime” of having no black Gondorians.

Originally Posted by littlemissattitude

I think the person makings these charges of racism was just trying to create an issue.

The person is simply repeating something that has been said time and time again for years and years, much like “Frodo and Sam are gay.”

[Circus Cranium]

(I'm not sure if it has a mythological root - but it certainly came up before in literature - in the Shakespeare play, MacBeth is told that he cannot be slain by anyone born of a woman. Then along comes MacDuff, who was not actually born to a woman, but instead lifted from her by a caesarian.)__________________

Yeah, nice analogy.

[Lacedaemonian]

The two statues of the Argonath - giving the old zieg heil stood out.

[Sirathiel]

I think I remember there being at least one dark skinned human, the oliphant rider/master. As to the racism question, I'm with those stating geography. The part of Middle Earth Tolkien told us about and Jackson showed us is clearly set in a European like climate. And as evolution goes, the darkest skin tones with get is the bronze of southern lands like Spain, Italy and Greece.

Also I remember reading in the books about the dark skinned men of the dry southern regions or something like that. It's not their fault that Sauron went to them for troops...

So, I, too, say no racism there.

And Peter, it's sieg heil, unless you want to pull instead of win.

[polymorphikos]

That and it's a blatant allegory for the Turks, as much as he denied it.

[Teresa Edgerton]

It doesn't seem like Tolkien tells enough about the Haradrim or the Easterlings for them to be an obvious allegory for ANYone.

[Hypes]

I love the smell of bullshit PC in the morning.

[rune]

I didnt even give this a thought. It's probably wrong of me but I never approach a book and think if it's sexist or racist. Never enters my head to think about those things. I just read for the enjoyment. There are things that I dont feel comfortable with in stories, alot of cruelty to animals being one of them. But that's just something I can't read about.

[DylanSomething]

Here is an article that adresses this accusation and the poor support that goes with it.

http://scifi.about.com/cs/lordoftherings/a/aa012303.htm

~Someone

[Sibeling]

The author of the article has got a point there - only Americans who are crazy about political correctness could imagine something as ridiculous as racism in the book which teaches us only good things - friendship,duty, etc.,etc.

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Someone pointed out on another forum - in Return of the King, in the moment before the battle at the gates of Mordor, the heroes and villains are arrayed...

...and the good guys are all white skinned, and the bad guys have all got brown or black skin.

Is this is a form of racism?

No. The badies have 'Black' and dark skin because they are from the south. Tolkien adressed this issue in a letter and said that he is not racist (despite the fact he was kidnapped by an African Tribesman).