LOTR : Slightly off-topic questions

[hypocriticHarkonnen]

Originally Posted by pyanfaruk

This is one of the problems in not having read the books, but relying on the film for the story. Tolkien doesn't have Arwen Evenstar rescue Frodo: the elf that aids the travellers to the Ford is Glorfindel, a powerful Elf-lord, and (relying on memory here,) I believe that the river is actually raised by Elrond himself. I would think that the change was made to "tighten" the storyline, and to show the valour of Elf-maidens: certainly I would be very surprised if Elrond would let his precious daughter out unescorted into such danger - there is no way she could have stood up to the Witch-king by herself.

am I right in saying that Gandalf added the images of the horses in Elrond's river spell? and yes, that's true. Great though P. Jackson is in masterfully retelling the trilogy, he out of necessity has to tweak some details. Like, the part in TT where the Elves supposedly come to the aid of Helm's Deep when in fact no such thing occurred in the book.

[j. d. worthington]

Both right. Glorfindel actually dated back to the First Age -- was older than Elrond, in fact. And it was Elrond, in Imladris, who raised the river, and Gandalf, with his use of fire, that created the images of the white horses. And, while I quite like the bit with Arwen in the film in many ways, you're right. There is no way in hell that Elrond would have let "the Evenstar" of his people place herself in that kind of danger. She was, for all intents and purposes, Luthien returned, and was too precious to the entire race of the Elves, for that.

[hypocriticHarkonnen]

didn't Glorfindel have anything to do with the prophecy about who will kill the Witch-King? I forgot I think I've read that somewhere

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

There is no way in hell that Elrond would have let "the Evenstar" of his people place herself in that kind of danger. She was, for all intents and purposes, Luthien returned, and was too precious to the entire race of the Elves, for that.

What's this about "letting"?

Arwen was neither a chattel or a child (being well over a thousand years old at the time), and while she obviously respected her father's wishes on several important points (like waiting to marry Aragorn), elf maidens didn't always obey their fathers and stay at home meekly awaiting the return of their lovers (Luthien being a case in point) and occasionally did show some initiative of their own.

Therefore there is no overwhelming reason that Arwen couldn't have been there at the Ford; it just happens that she wasn't. Tolkien seems to have imagined her as a much more passive individual. (If you read the early drafts of the trilogy, you can see that she did come into the mythos fairly late in the day. Perhaps she would have developed further if she hadn't been set in stone in LOTR relatively soon after he thought of her.)

As for the spell she uses against the Nazgûl in the movie, on some of the Tolkien fan sites (I forget which ones) you can find the spell in Elvish as she spoke it in the film, along with an English translation. I may not be remembering this properly word-for-word, but it was something along these lines: Waters of the Misty Mountains hear the great word. Rise waters of Loudwater against the Ringwraiths.

[j. d. worthington]

While your arguments are quite correct, I was referring back to Tolkien's novel rather than the film, in response to the original question as to whether the spell was dealt with in the book. As for "letting" Arwen etc. -- considering her importance, he might well have done as Luthien's father did, and imprisoned her rather than let her risk this; and, I think, Arwen would have been hard-pressed to do this anyway -- not through lack of courage (I see her as a very courageous individual) but because of her sense of responsibility to her people in this crisis, knowing how it might very demoralize them at a point when they needed all their strength (mental/emotional as well physical) to face the coming storm. At the last need, I think she would have done so and been very good at it; but was very much "caught between the devil and the deep blue sea" here; as was her father, who would not have wanted to thwart her in this, and would even have been inclined to encourage her, but also knew what her loss would mean to his people should she fail. There really were no happy answers to this dilemma, in my view; only their courage and ability to stand fast even when their hearts told them to do something differently kept them from overreaching and possibly destroying the slim chance they had. Therefore, I stand by "let" in this case, though not in the usual male-dominated/paternal sense, but in the sense of his position as leader of his people.

[The Ace]

Tolkein says in "the Hobbit," "Evil things do not come into that valley," if I'm reading it right, the presence of the nazgul in the waers of the river would have triggered the flood. Gandalf only embellished it and Elrond had probably set the whole thing up when he established Rivendell (Imaldris).
Gothmog, High Captain of Angband was a Balrog and he and Sauron were Morgoth's chief leutenants.
The chief of the ringwraiths was also the Witch - King of Angmar, the kingdom Sauron set up in the North to destroy Arnor (they only partially succeeded because the royal line remained intact in the Chieftains of the Dunedain (Rangers)).

[pyan]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

As for "letting" Arwen etc. -- considering her importance, he might well have done as Luthien's father did, and imprisoned her rather than let her risk this; and, I think, Arwen would have been hard-pressed to do this anyway -- not through lack of courage (I see her as a very courageous individual) but because of her sense of responsibility to her people in this crisis, knowing how it might very demoralize them at a point when they needed all their strength (mental/emotional as well physical) to face the coming storm.

Much better put than I could have, but yes, that's my meaning when I used "let" as well. What would Aragorn have done if Arwen had been killed at this point? Would he have had the heart to carry on? Arwen was called "the Evenstar of her people" and losing her may have accelerated the Flight to the West. Without the support of the Elves, the whole war may have been lost - all because Arwen put herself at risk.