Advancement of Technology and Opinions there of

[Jack]

As the title suggests – This is a thread to discuss or air any thoughts or queries on new technology or understandings. Be the replies religious or opinion, I care not – Your opinions will be welcome and treated with respect. I will not sanction disrespect of others opinions on my thread please. But please feel free to post other topics of this subject that is of interest to you for discussion.

To start the ball rolling –

Animal – Human chimera’s and the gene splicing of human DNA with that of animals. It’s not only possible but also soon somewhere to become a reality? Science fiction today? One set of cat’s eyes, extensive motor neuron replacement and a big fluffy tail in black, to go please – Is that so wrong? Why not feather light bones and wings, is it not peoples own right to make their own choices on such things?
Now my views on this are varied – It could hugely help diseases and genetic disorders and cure a lot of pain in the world and possibly can be made to have no outward differences - you would look human just have parts of other animals inside you e.g. organ donations. But is that truly what we wont? The human body is to all respects a rather weak and shappy thing – Stick on a pair of gills and we have someone that has no need for a air suit when diving and can live underwater – The advances are endless and would truly advance mankind…But would we still be mankind? As I stated, the cosmetic implications could also be high – Would it affect our minds?
There is also the problem of animal diseases that before where not zoonotic (Passable from animal to human e.g. flu) becoming compatible and becoming a pandemic.
A big question – Do we go down the route of life or the route of cold metal? One day this will have to be answered.

There is also the big trend at the moment to put human DNA in animals for organ farming at a later date, which is pushing us rapidly to the beginning of gene splicing as a normal thing, a possibly dangerous normality – But on topic e.g.

- In Minnesota last year researchers at the Mayo Clinic created pigs with human blood flowing through their bodies.
- And at Stanford University in California an experiment might be done later this year to create mice with human brains.

Scientists feel that, the more humanlike the animal, the better research model it makes for testing drugs or possibly growing "spare parts," such as livers, to transplant into humans.
I cannot give that my support – Where do we draw the line? When does it become human enough to have rights? And as a medical worker I support animal testing, the amount of lives it has saved is astronomical. But this? This disturbs me.
So creating human-animal chimeras has raised troubling questions as we all know such horror stories and films - What new subhuman combination should be produced and for what purpose – Put then we can all guess? At what point would it be considered human? And what rights, if any, should it have?
Just to clear a point - A chimera is a mixture of two or more species in one body. Not all are considered troubling to science in general, though e.g.
An example, faulty human heart valves are routinely replaced with ones taken from cows and pigs. The surgery — which makes the recipient a human - animal chimera — is widely accepted. And for years scientists have added human genes to bacteria and farm animals. So is this ‘that different’?

Nanu nanu!

[star.torturer]

thats fine with me

[j. d. worthington]

Okay, Jack; I asked for it, and I got it -- now what the devil to do with it???

Just some random, early thoughts for openers:

Originally Posted by Jack

Animal – Human chimera’s and the gene splicing of human DNA with that of animals. It’s not only possible but also soon somewhere to become a reality? Science fiction today? One set of cat’s eyes, extensive motor neuron replacement and a big fluffy tail in black, to go please – Is that so wrong? Why not feather light bones and wings, is it not peoples own right to make their own choices on such things?
Now my views on this are varied – It could hugely help diseases and genetic disorders and cure a lot of pain in the world and possibly can be made to have no outward differences - you would look human just have parts of other animals inside you e.g. organ donations. But is that truly what we wont? The human body is to all respects a rather weak and shappy thing – Stick on a pair of gills and we have someone that has no need for a air suit when diving and can live underwater – The advances are endless and would truly advance mankind…But would we still be mankind? As I stated, the cosmetic implications could also be high – Would it affect our minds?

Herein lies what I conceive to be a major problem not so much morally, ethically, technically, or in its benefits/drawbacks, but societally. We've become adjusted to the human form over a very, very long time and, though this is being modified slowly (it's not that long that we've stopped looking at people such as "Siamese Twins" or "little people" or those with other genetic defects, as "monsters" -- and even now I think this is largely surface, scratch us very deep and we still tend to react that way), such change is quite recent. And of course such a major change would affect our minds. It may do so on a basic physico-biological level, or the much more difficult to pin down psychological effects of being different from those around us (look how much trouble even those with higher intelligence, a different fashion sense, or skin disorders, etc. tend to have with self-image; or, conversely, how superior they feel to others as a compensatory measure). This is not to say it shouldn't or won't be done -- as with nearly anything one can think of, this is relative to the situation, and views will depend on its usefulness/advantages over time. But one aspect of it is, of course, truly being able to "choose what you look like" and, so some degree, "who you are" -- how much of the latter has yet to be decided, as we still are only opening the door on how much brain configuration affects (or is affected by as it develops) personality. Which also ties in with something you mention below, which I'll address there.

There is also the problem of animal diseases that before where not zoonotic (Passable from animal to human e.g. flu) becoming compatible and becoming a pandemic.
A big question – Do we go down the route of life or the route of cold metal? One day this will have to be answered.

Again, this has both benefits and drawbacks. It may get us off our butts and looking for actual cures for diseases we've not bothered with so far, but which may possibly mutate into a freakish zoonotic form. (I miss the diaresis on that, by the way.) Do we become cyborgs in the accepted sf sense? It's possible. Either metal or a blend of metal/plastic and flesh. Unlikely, for the reasons stated above about our tendency to hold onto our bias for the human form, but possible. Again, its' a trade-off either way. We gain some, we lose some with whatever decision; and, unless we all make the same decision, it can cause even more friction, or more understanding and acceptance, depending.

There is also the big trend at the moment to put human DNA in animals for organ farming at a later date, which is pushing us rapidly to the beginning of gene splicing as a normal thing, a possibly dangerous normality – But on topic e.g.

- In Minnesota last year researchers at the Mayo Clinic created pigs with human blood flowing through their bodies.
- And at Stanford University in California an experiment might be done later this year to create mice with human brains.

Pigs have been one of the best models for understanding human physiology -- or certain aspects thereof -- for a very long time; this seems to me, for the moment, simply another form of that. As for the mice with human brains: I have both questions and concerns. The question is the capacity/size of such brains. And the concern applies to what I said earlier about how much the structure of the brain and personality -- which, ultimately, is what makes us human, and why the "freaks" listed above remain human despite apparent complete deviation from the human form. Here you're getting into some seriously troubling ethical issues; this is almost a form of deliberately breeding idiots or cretins for biological experimentation, or at least a shade too near for comfort. Before genetically manipulating the brain, we really need to understand the brain/mind connection much better than we do; more than any physical aspect of things, this is where we'd be playing God, in my opinion.

Scientists feel that, the more humanlike the animal, the better research model it makes for testing drugs or possibly growing "spare parts," such as livers, to transplant into humans.
I cannot give that my support – Where do we draw the line? When does it become human enough to have rights? And as a medical worker I support animal testing, the amount of lives it has saved is astronomical. But this? This disturbs me.

I, too, find it a troubling idea. I'm certain that it's going to come, but this is one of those areas where we really need to get on the ball and deciding what consitutes ethical and unethical behavior here. So far, we've pretty much fumbled our way through the questions of ethics in so much of science with practical applications; but with the first atomic explosion -- nay, with the splitting of the atom -- the clock that counts the time when we actually have to make such a decision in a meaningful way started speeding up tremendously, and at an exponential if not geometric rate. There are so many benefits here; but how much will we be willing to sacrifice of what we hold as our better ideals in order to achieve what benefits? So far, we've largely evaded this question. Now it's not knocking on the door, it's shown up with a bally great battering-ram.

So creating human-animal chimeras has raised troubling questions as we all know such horror stories and films - What new subhuman combination should be produced and for what purpose – Put then we can all guess? At what point would it be considered human? And what rights, if any, should it have?
Just to clear a point - A chimera is a mixture of two or more species in one body. Not all are considered troubling to science in general, though e.g.
An example, faulty human heart valves are routinely replaced with ones taken from cows and pigs.

And I'm of an age to still remember when this very practice caused a major controversy, so much so that the doctors who first attempted the practice were, in many places (including major portions of the U.S.) looked on in much the same light as our ancestors of a couple of centuries ago looked on those who practiced what they saw as "thaumaturgy". There were quite literally people (and they were not few) who put them in the same category as Mengele and company. Again, I think the final decision will rest on how useful this proves to be, and who's life is saved -- if it's someone rich, or seen as a public benefactor, it's likely to find a way into acceptable much more quickly. If it's some poor schlub off the streets, the people practicing it had best barricade their doors and have lots of supplies handy.

The surgery — which makes the recipient a human - animal chimera — is widely accepted. And for years scientists have added human genes to bacteria and farm animals. So is this ‘that different’?

Nanu nanu!

Anyway, these are some of the thoughts that come to mind right off. This is exciting stuff, and I thank you for sharing this -- there were quite a few things in here I was unaware of, and I love learning about such things. But it has both unbelievable benefits and lots of paving stones for that proverbial road -- and the two may go hand in hand quite a lot of the time.

[Jack]

thats fine with me

Ha ha!

Okay, Jack; I asked for it, and I got it -- now what the devil to do with it???

What! I haven’t even started on the Longitivity vaccine or Thermo Genesis yet! Narf!

We've become adjusted to the human form over a very, very long time and, though this is being modified slowly, such change is quite recent. And of course such a major change would affect our minds.

My opinion – I dislike being human, whether this is a physiological problem of my own or not, that is still my personal dislike – We as a race are one of the most physical inept of all animals bar the fact we have a thumb, even Dolphins out brain power us and have the promise to be by far our betters if we decide to mess/play god with them before evolution sorts it out for herself. When you think about it a majorly peed-off squirrel can eat us up and spit us out – That’s not a good thing. At the moment we use devices to save ourselves from nature. Instead we have the chance to be nature – I would rather be the wind than sit in a steel cage.

But one aspect of it is, of course, truly being able to "choose what you look like" and, so some degree, "who you are" -- how much of the latter has yet to be decided, as we still are only opening the door on how much brain configuration affects (or is affected by as it develops) personality. Which also ties in with something you mention below, which I'll address there.

It’s going to happen with parents ‘making their own babies’ in any context – The film Gatica was not so far of the mark I’m beginning to think. As for choosing what you look like – You can in some respect do so already – Though it depends on how big a load of $ you have. Do not humbly agree with it – But then I look like a starving wolf and care not, though I do wish I could be a bit taller – Dangerous game this.

Again, this has both benefits and drawbacks. It may get us off our butts and looking for actual cures for diseases we've not bothered with so far, but which may possibly mutate into a freakish zoonotic form.

We need more people and more unity – A grand world science/medical council and union/corps under one council of leaders. The things we could do…its nice to dream (sigh).

Do we become cyborgs in the accepted sf sense? It's possible. Either metal or a blend of metal/plastic and flesh. Unlikely, for the reasons stated above about our tendency to hold onto our bias for the human form, but possible. Again, its' a trade-off either way. We gain some, we lose some with whatever decision; and, unless we all make the same decision, it can cause even more friction, or more understanding and acceptance, depending.

Too AI for me – Anything mechanical without a built in off switch that can have dreams – Is ultimately something a get very itchy over – Puppets should have strings. Again I very much doubt our minds could stay sane trapped in metal – I know mine wouldn’t at that.
Peter F. Hamilton handles your last point very well – Even if it is a very long read

Here you're getting into some seriously troubling ethical issues; this is almost a form of deliberately breeding idiots or cretins for biological experimentation, or at least a shade too near for comfort. Before genetically manipulating the brain, we really need to understand the brain/mind connection much better than we do; more than any physical aspect of things, this is where we'd be playing God, in my opinion.

Agreed – It highly disturbs me. To put it in context, the treatments I make are shipped of to a lab and then tested on mice before they ever see the patient involved – So far I have only one human error, and thank the divine that it was spotted by the animal testing – While not a big over calculation, it would have made the little mite a very sick little bunny for quite some weeks – But I really do like mice, I would much prefer human tissue tests (Though mice are by far more DNA parallel with us than before believed – The phrase humans are like vermin is a bit too close for comfort).

I, too, find it a troubling idea. I'm certain that it's going to come, but this is one of those areas where we really need to get on the ball and deciding what constitutes ethical and unethical behaviour here. So far, we've pretty much fumbled our way through the questions of ethics in so much of science with practical applications; but with the first atomic explosion -- nay, with the splitting of the atom -- the clock that counts the time when we actually have to make such a decision in a meaningful way started speeding up tremendously, and at an exponential if not geometric rate. There are so many benefits here; but how much will we be willing to sacrifice of what we hold as our better ideals in order to achieve what benefits? So far, we've largely evaded this question. Now it's not knocking on the door, it's shown up with a bally great battering-ram.

In the same way people do not wish to talk about race hate or global warming, if we ignore it, it may go away – Is that what happened with the Narzis?
Or to quote – Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds
We are not the one’s that pull the trigger – You are the ones that decide or do not care who does.

And I'm of an age to still remember when this very practice caused a major controversy, so much so that the doctors who first attempted the practice were, in many places (including major portions of the U.S.) looked on in much the same light as our ancestors of a couple of centuries ago looked on those who practiced what they saw as "thaumaturgy". There were quite literally people (and they were not few) who put them in the same category as Mengele and company.

Yes, I could understand that – What we do not understand we fear and try to destroy. I so wish no peaceful intelligent life decides to drop in and say hi to us.
As for the US, you have by far your own problems my friend – Onward Christian solider – What is it? Ah yes…Intelligent design? I think I have a headache!

But it has both unbelievable benefits and lots of paving stones for that proverbial road -- and the two may go hand in hand quite a lot of the time.

One can hope – Though speed is starting to become of the essence, we are fast running out of time. The time of indecision and pathetic arguing for decades must be decided – Or I fear we lose everything.


Nanu nanu!

[j. d. worthington]

Jack: Glad to see your responses. Don't always agree, of course, but that's what helps to thresh out workable solutions -- brainstorming. At any rate, anent the human animal (a particularly felicitous phrase, I think): While I understand the feeling, and have shared it concerning my own physique more than a little (I have a congenital heart murmur that is gradually deteriorating, meaning I can gradually do less and less and frequently have dizziness, spots, occasional palpitations, the lot), nonetheless there is something elegant about the form itself, just as there is with cats, many types of dogs, snakes, ferrets (no, I've not forgotten your furry companion; quite elegant in their way, and I have a fondness for 'em), etc., etc. But I think that tools are our nature, as it were. The combination of the peculiar brain structure we developed plus the opposable thumb allowed us to take a different path than most species at a faster rate -- both dangers and blessings. Like anything else, it's what we do with it that will prove whether this is a good or a bad thing. So far, the record waffles a great deal, but we have survived in a world that was simply often too harsh for us to do so "naturally". And I may be biassed here, but I really think it would have been a loss had we not had the Galileos, the Michelangelos, the Shakespeares (and even the HPLs), etc., of the world; I find "human nature" often frustrating -- hasn't it been defined as "the ability to rationalize our basest drives rather than use our rationality to overcome them"? -- but it is, so far, what we've had to use. And we have a chance yet to improve our behavior, if we so choose.... (Yes, we can dream. And wish upon a star, as well ... what the hell, it may work -- as long as we keep slogging at it!)

I, too, have serious trouble with the sort of cyborg existence that I posit; I wouldn't want it; but there are those who might, and who might make a rather good use of it, just as there are those who would be a holy terror with it. As for the quotation: it's about time someone brought that one back out; I think it should be nailed on the wall of every politicos' and high-ranking military personnel's office -- and not a few researchers, as well; as a warning, if nothing else, of which road to avoid. And we all help make that decision; I just hope to hell we make good use of it.

As for the U.S. and the recrudescence of fundamentalism and "Intelligent Design" (which is having trouble even among its own ranks, by the way); there are also still flat-earthers, among other neo-mystical groups, that simply aren't in touch with the changing face of reality; I don't know if you've ever read Lovecraft's letters, but he has a spot-on prediction concerning a lot of this, as far back as the late '20s (in the third volume, as I recall). I fear such will always be with us. The solution is education, but as long as politicians bow to public opinion (wasn't it Burke who said "Those who represent the people owe them not only their industry but their judgment; and they betray their trust if they sacrifice it to their opinion"?) rather than insisting upon educating children -- and, where at all possible, adults -- on realities based on evidence, we are unlikely to see decent education fostered in this country, especially where such basic issues are concerned. Yes, this worries me. I was not exempting the U.S., I was talking about the world as a whole which, in the end, we are, for we are too interdependent for such decisions in any part of the globe to not have its effect upon the rest, eventually. And, yes, the spirit of Salem 1692 is alive and well, it would seem. I've encountered more than a little of it myself. (I also like the ironic comment; nicely played, sir!)

Yes, I know time's running out ... that's also my point. But the obverse of that is, we're only on the threshold of learning the implications of these changes; some of the consequences we cannot even imagine until they occur, whichever road we take. So it's necessary to realize that, no matter what we do, that road continues to be paved as we go along, and some of those paving-stones are gonna be awfully hot and leave scars. The best we can do is to get our heads out of our posteriors and use the best (genuine) wisdom we have, and learn from our mistakes ... and hope. I feel, personally, the future is pretty bleak, but not necessarily without any rays of light at the other end, and maybe before. The more enlightened we allow ourselves to become, the more the clouds will begin to disperse, with just enough showers to keep the ground fertile, if you will -- if we're very, very lucky and work very, very hard.

Anyway, hope this doesn't seem too much nattering on pointlessly. I look forward to any new information you have -- or any responses to my thoughts (perhaps especially so should I be talking nonsense and need correcting).

[Asmer20]

Jack, you stole MY thread I dea!!! I have a thread called real advancement and thats exactly what this is about!!! you jerk!!

[chrispenycate]

wanders across to other thread, loosely grasping question

Quote:
If nothing else the religious implications are serious.
I fail to see how? Please explain that one Chris.

One of the fundamental tenets that carries across all religions I've so far met is that of an immaterial section of human beings (and occasionally other species) which, for the sake of argument, I will call a soul. it is generally accepted that this is installed that this is installed considerably before birth, frquently at the moment of conception. Now, when a blastocyst? splits to make a pair of identical twins, presumeably either the soul divides, or another is issued from central - but if two merge, forming a single organism with two distinct genetic patterns (that was what you were describing, wasn't it? I'll see my biologist tomorrow and get myself brought up; well, not up to date, but a bit less ignorant than I am now) are the two immateril bits supposed to merge, too?(against most religious teaching, they're generally considered unique) Or does one get sent back to "go" and collect £200? if so, which? Or does the "chimera" traverse this mortal realm with two or more of these unique spiritual bits (handy for out of body experiences, but complicated at the judgement stage) Take it in turn karma? Partial responsability? And if immeteria bits can merge, might not the original pantheon have merged characteristics to leave the relatively small selection of very large supernatural beings available today?

Or perhaps it's only worth issuing souls when the gender and batch number are stabilised; after all, it's not that long agothat they didn't issue to people with the wrong colour skin, or mental deficients.
I think I missed my calling; imperial complicator!
Ah, well, none of these hypothoses are verifyable, but it's 40+ years since I worried about theology, or biology for that matter

[j. d. worthington]

I stayed away from the majority of the entire issue of how this would impact the world's major religions, as it gets down to the fundamental tenets in each, and is likely to be a real hornets' nest to get into. I've spent most of my life fighting that sort of battle, and frankly I'm just "weary unto death" of the whole thing. (I have this sort of tussle every time I get onto any topic other than the weather with my family, it seems. The final argument against anything in science that contradicts their worldview is "But the Bible says....")

However, realistically, since we share the planet with people that hold such views dear, how to handle the implications of such knowledge and/or advances really does have to be taken into consideration. Otherwise you disenfranchise an enormous amount of the human race from the get-go, and don't even give those who stand a chance of growing out of their prejudices an opportunity to do so by presenting the evidence gradually, where they can overcome first one road-block, then another, until they finally begin to see the facts rather than what they've been brought up to believe is literally the word of God. (Now, I ask you, if you genuinely believed that what you were taught at your mother's/father's/uncle's/etc.'s knee was quite literally from God's mouth to your ear, and that said God created the universe and everything in it, etc., how likely would you be to toss it all up quickly in favor of facts given to you in toto? It's not necessarily that they're savage, it's that their backgrounds do not allow them to see this without prejudice; and so it becomes difficult for them to accept that which questions the very basis of their existence from the cradle up.)

The implications of all this are staggering to questing minds, let alone orthodox thinking. And, in order for any good to come of this entire field, we must put in serious thought how to educate people out of their prejudices, keeping in mind that, like most bivalves, hit 'em in a certain spot and they'll snap shut so that the devil himself (if you'll pardon the phrase) couldn't unlock 'em. People in general do that, whatever their background, religious, sceptic or complete materialist. There's no easy solution, but those who are truly interested in advancing the knowledge have also got the added task of formulating answers to questions that may not even exist for them, but most certainly do for a huge number of the people they're going to have to deal with; answers that can keep the lines of communication open and help ameliorate the process of learning so that there's some hope of getting things moving in the brief time we may have left, therefore buying us maybe just a smidge more, and a smidge more after that, and...

I have little patience with such fluffery, but to ignore it while the populace becomes increasingly inclined to such mystical thinking is to find yourself in the position of Kornbluth's "The Marching Morons". It's as inspissated a way of thinking, in its own light, as any other.

[Jack]

Jack, you stole MY thread Idea!!! I have a thread called real advancement and that’s exactly what this is about!!! you jerk!!

Ah such loud noises child – I stole your idea? Really? Now I thought JD asked me to start this thread? The mind, it must play tricks no?
As for another thread like this – Where? If I can natter away on two that’s twice the fun is it not.
As for the rest – There is a PM button, please next time you wish to make an arse of yourself to me, please feel free to use it – I cannot ever get enough of pixels on a screen calling me a jerk.
PS – feel free to comment on the issue if you wish, and I will find my way to your thread.

Don't always agree, of course, but that's what helps to thresh out workable solutions -- brainstorming.

If we agreed all the time what a boring debate this would become.

While I understand the feeling, and have shared it concerning my own physique more than a little (I have a congenital heart murmur that is gradually deteriorating, meaning I can gradually do less and less and frequently have dizziness, spots, occasional palpitations, the lot)

Say hello to level 8 Hyperglycaemia – It seems that we all have a default now. Sign of the times maybe – You have my best wishes my friend, please keep yourself safe. My friend of 26 has such problems as this and fears the worst – Is it not funny how it’s the little things – But then the little things make it even more worthwhile.

Nonetheless there is something elegant about the form itself, just as there is with cats, many types of dogs, snakes, ferrets (no, I've not forgotten your furry companion; quite elegant in their way, and I have a fondness for 'em), etc., etc. But I think that tools are our nature, as it were. The combination of the peculiar brain structure we developed plus the opposable thumb allowed us to take a different path than most species at a faster rate -- both dangers and blessings.

I hate to agree with this but I will – You put it too elegantly JD…But I would still love a tail ha ha!
Maybe – If it were proven safe mind you, and only then – Maybe it would allow us to grow without the need of greed or race hate – Everyone would and could be different physically – So no black and no white. But then you would have the problem of the ones that stayed ‘pure’ and it would all start up again. Well that and it really would cause problems with the Olympic games

And we have a chance yet to improve our behaviour, if we so choose.... (Yes, we can dream. And wish upon a star, as well ... what the hell, it may work -- as long as we keep slogging at it

There can never be enough hope or free will – And we do not fight as one voice by far as much as we should do. Let the idiot dictators of the world tremble, for we are the real power – All we need is one voice. Maybe I will live to see that, I wonder what we should call this brave new world we shall drag up from the ashes of the old? I vote for Bob

I, too, have serious trouble with the sort of cyborg existence that I posit; I wouldn't want it; but there are those who might, and who might make a rather good use of it, just as there are those who would be a holy terror with it.

As long as there is a plug – But time will tell. Especially with the developments of very resent times e.g.
We can now put a chip in someone’s brain and wire it up to a computer – The computer then maps all the motor neurons in the brain and transfers it to a machine, that will then mimic as if a real extension of their bodies / even touch, their movement-thought processes.
Example – A self-driving tank that is controlled by someone sitting at a desk in an army base in the UK, but the tank is on the otherside of the world.
One can ask how long before that tank becomes a jet/missile/humanlike mechanical construct?
I don’t like it – I don’t like it one bit. Technology like this is a godsend to medical science – We would be able to remobilise paralysed or amputee people. But what do they do – Make weapons, I hate being human sometimes.

As for the quotation: it's about time someone brought that one back out; I think it should be nailed on the wall of every politicos' and high-ranking military personnel's office -- and not a few researchers, as well; as a warning, if nothing else, of which road to avoid. And we all help make that decision; I just hope to hell we make good use of it.

That quote alone scares the hell out of me – You really don’t want too know what I can get my hands on if I so wished – And that terrifies me more than anything else. For I have become death (shivers). Those men have a lot to answer for – Its now our job to make sure the horror never ever happens again e.g. Fusion – It makes a nuke look like a child’s toy.

As for the U.S. and the recrudescence of fundamentalism and "Intelligent Design" (which is having trouble even among its own ranks, by the way)

Good to know – It really does give us Darwinist a headache. Just please don’t let a whole generation of your children grow up believing this from school – You would be the laughing stock of the international community and as creatable as a wet herring, and I quite like Americans when you get passed the spiel and rhetoric – They are in general not half bad. At least you mean well.

(I also like the ironic comment; nicely played, sir!)

Still painful that it’s true though.

and some of those paving-stones are gonna be awfully hot and leave scars. The best we can do is to get our heads out of our posteriors and use the best (genuine) wisdom we have, and learn from our mistakes ... and hope. I feel, personally, the future is pretty bleak, but not necessarily without any rays of light at the other end, and maybe before. The more enlightened we allow ourselves to become, the more the clouds will begin to disperse, with just enough showers to keep the ground fertile, if you will -- if we're very, very lucky and work very, very hard.

Now is the time for it – And the silence is defining. You know what happens to the blind farmer that stands and in the field with a gormless expression on his face as the whirlwind passes over him? Our ancestors or others find bits of him laying about here and there – It must have been important once? But it’s not worth remembering.

I don’t want to be that farmer – Burn away, at least the scars are worth it and it helps us forward on the path.
We live in too interesting times.

(Perhaps especially so should I be talking nonsense and need correcting).

I do that every day – Is not life full of such things, what is irony but laughing as you make an idiot of yourself?

I will answer you Chris - But I'm tired and it's late, you may enjoy it though e.g. ask your biologist friend about a world wide study on what happens after death done by medical researchers - Very interesting conclusions.

[j. d. worthington]

Now that last I would definitely like to see more on. PM me, if you think it's too hot a topic for the open forums. I remember some research on the actual process of dying and how the brain shuts down layer by layer, as it were -- but that was several years ago. Drop me a line to point me to where to look for this more recent stuff....

[Jack]

PM me, if you think it's too hot a topic for the open forums

I think I can rely on how intelligent people are here -

http://www.horizon-research.co.uk/

It has links to other sites - I will be answering Chris's post later - But I'm doing something more important. Making Karren breakfast in bed

Nanu nanu

[j. d. worthington]

To quote a wise old (and I do mean old ... hello, Stan) sage: 'Nuff said!

[j. d. worthington]

Just visited the site you mention, and found a lot of very fascinating information. One thing that surprised me, considering how long ago it was published, is the continued use of Asimov and Bach's Atom: Journeying Across the Subatomic Universe, included in their specific research sources.

Yes, the last I'd heard was, as I mentioned, an experiment using a patient who was dying of cancer, who agreed to have tests run on him during his final moments; this allowed them to find out quite a bit, but compared to this, it seems to have only scratched the surface (though much of what they were finding then has apparently been further substantiated). I've wondered for a long time when the connection between thought/personality and the more "extreme" parts of quantum mechanics would begin to show up, having felt rather strongly that the effects of such physics may not be inherently obvious on the macroscopic level, but when we start getting into such major things as the development of mind, it was likely to suddenly become very much a part of our macrocosmic world. Of course, we're a long way from understanding much of that connection, but the beginning of such seems to be coming into play....

Fascinating stuff! Thanks for the resource. (I'm just surprised that CVU hasn't jumped in here, considering her promotion of biology and related fields in the science section. It'd be interesting to hear her take on this. On that note, I'm glad to see that -- at least concerning the brighter students -- the ones coming up today seem to be growing up with a rather good grasp of quantum physics, considering what a woolly bear it can be. There are some bright rays out in that future, after all!)

[tiny99]

We would eventually end up with a divided society of humans and mutants.
The humans would hate the mutants just because they're different, the mutants, however, would use their animal strengths and stealth to appear servile to the humans before ultimately overthrowing the worlds governments and leaders and then eating all the humans.

[Jack]

Hi Chris

Quote:
If nothing else the religious implications are serious.
I fail to see how? Please explain that one Chris.


I think I should start by saying that yes I believe in a divine – Maybe not a human-like intelligence or will, but most certainly a divine that is in all things, and I so choose to give it a female persona as that sits far more comforting on my mind than ‘stern man with big white beard’. I also disagree with any type of divine will – Sorry, you cannot blame your actions on a myth. That does not sit with me at all.
A quote that describes it better is from a religious film of all places – Stigmata (Rome tried to ban this one as well), and goes something like – You cannot find me in mansions make of wood and stone, chop a piece of wood and you will hear me, lift a stone and you will see me – I believe its from the dead sea scrolls? That makes far more sense to me and sits quite well – For myself at least, though one has to wonder how such wise words became the houses of god – I wonder if the writer somehow knows and despairs?
And so I highly dislike religious ‘institutions’ (not people) of god, and cannot bring myself to believe in any myths written by woman hating, greedy control freaks – Be they European, Arab or Hebrew – And I defiantly do not believe in Yeshua, being anything but a man and a idiot/religious nut/weirdy beardy (Same thing that is happening now, was happening then – Nothing changes, it only goes round and round in ever pathetic circles of death and hate to be re-cycled and too start again and again) that got himself crucified – Which means too burn by the way, or as my little sis puts it – Do you really think that after 3 days nailed to a cross with faeces and urine and disease rife all over your body and probably infected puss filled wounds and holes where the birds pecked out your eyes – They would come anywhere near you? No, they just piled up wood at the base and lit it – If you were still half alive – Boohoo, or they were merciful and stuck a spear in you before hand, that way you might die before you burned to death – How merciful (Pleasant wee beastie is she not?).

One of the fundamental tenets that carries across all religions I've so far met is that of an immaterial section of human beings (and occasionally other species) which, for the sake of argument, I will call a soul. it is generally accepted that this is installed that this is installed considerably before birth, frquently at the moment of conception.

It appears I may be a chimera, I seem to meet the criteria of such – But are you saying I’m soulless? Ha ha! Well maybe?
But if you think about it – All the greatest artists and humanitarians in this world heard voices or had chimera like qualities – Its quite common (famous TV presenters for one – Mr Norton), and most of the time held conversations an even had visitations from the voices in there heads – Though this might draw problems with the idea of hearing voices being a sign of madness or of muses of the arts? Maybe they have two souls e.g. are born possessed in a way – and just like any type of human – Some are bad egg’s, but most are good? It’s an idea, probably a bad one? But there is stranger things in heaven and hell? But their is probably afar better explanation out there than that - Of which I would not be surprized over.

wasn't it?

Yes – Mainly twins, its just before we did not know they had been twins – Or how common its beginning to appear that this happens.

are the two immateril bits supposed to merge, too?(against most religious teaching, they're generally considered unique) Or does one get sent back to "go" and collect £200? if so, which? Or does the "chimera" traverse this mortal realm with two or more of these unique spiritual bits (handy for out of body experiences, but complicated at the judgement stage) Take it in turn karma? Partial responsability? And if immeteria bits can merge, might not the original pantheon have merged characteristics to leave the relatively small selection of very large supernatural beings available today?

Go to the site I posted – It can answer this for you far better than I can – I am not a genetics expert or at all highly knowledgeable about quantum theory – Though I have met and talked with my sister too the doctor from Southampton who began this speculation and program (My sister died for a while when she was 12, our father slit her throat) – So he was interested, as brain death (lack of blood to the brain) is considered as close to death that there is without actually dying. Some of the stories and cases if you can find them are very interesting – If not a bit morbid ha ha!

Or perhaps it's only worth issuing souls when the gender and batch number are stabilised; after all, it's not that long ago that they didn't issue to people with the wrong colour skin, or mental deficients.

Well we both know that’s just silly – I very much doubt souls have a sex or colour and are nothing more than quantum energy.

I think I missed my calling; imperial complicator!

How about kind and good man? You are a dying breed my friend.

Asimov and Bach's Atom: Journeying Across the Subatomic Universe

Clear and enlightened ideas never truly die.

There are some bright rays out in that future, after all!

There is always hope, and CVU is very welcome to put 2 pence in, as I really don’t know much about this subject as of yet (and as the thread start says, everyone’s opinion is welcome) – It really is not my field, while venom, poisons and there effects are on the nervous system are.

servile to the humans before ultimately overthrowing the worlds governments and leaders and then eating all the humans

Ha ha – Planet of the apes anyone or maybe the island of doctor Monroe (sp?). I still think a tail would be highly satisfying though, though maybe a pain to groom – Fur balls anyone?