"Personal" question(s) to John Jarrold

[SJAB]

Your submission will stand or fall on the standard of your writing, and if, in the agents/publishers opinion, said writing is publishable. John has said it a number of times in this thread.

Be professional and polite in your approach.

Make sure your writing is a polished as can be.

Don't whine and moan too much when you get a rejection. This is a business and in a sense you are applying for a job. You will fail far more times than being asked for sample pages, or if luck is on your side, a whole manuscript.

Once the submissions have been sent out, get on with life, write another story or not, just don't sit waiting for the letter/email to arrive with the rejection

[John Jarrold]

Originally Posted by anthorn

Thank you. So would they ask for proof, i.e Doctors notes, and would it be advisable just to say proof on request.
And i've hear that when they ask for a manuscript, they want a table of contents. Is this just so they can see how many chapters there is, and if you're including thanks, or Maps. And if i'm including maps, do i need to send them with the manuscript?

I have never heard of anyone requesting doctor's certificates, in the twenty years I've been involved in publishing!

Don't get side-tracked by detail. The book is what matters, the words on the page. Publishers' and agents' websites should tell you what they want to see. Don't send anything else.

[Peter Graham]

Originally Posted by Troo

As far as I'm aware it's actually illegal in the UK for a potential employer to ask you for more detail on any medical condition than you've already offered them. Whether or not selling novels falls into the usual employer / employee relationship and legal wrangles I cannot say. John?

Hi Troo,

(Coughs gently, adjusts pince-nez spectacles and takes down huge, dusty tome entitled "The Law and How To Do It")

Selling novels wouldn't give rise to an employment relationship between the author and the agent/publisher, as at law a contract to provide books would usually be regarded as a contract for services (a.k.a self-employment), rather than one of services (a.k.a. employment). The legal test for employment would not be met unless there were clear indications to the contrary. Otherwise, authors are like plumbers, gardeners or solicitors - you contract for their services only as and when you need them.

However, the Disability Discrimination Act doesn't just cover employment relationships. It was extended a couple of years back. It is now unlawful for service providers to differentiate between disabled and non-disabled service users in the way in which they offer access to their services. An agent or publisher might be regarded as a service provider (if their services are provided to the general public), which means that they would be under a legal duty to make "reasonable adjustments" to ensure that disabled people had the same rights of access to those services.

"Reasonable adjustments" is a loosely defined concept. The easier and cheaper the adjustment, the more reasonable it will usually be to make it. Regard is had to the size and resources of the service provider - a one-man accountancy firm operating on the top floor of a wheezy old Victorian building with spiders in the rafters and alarming patches of wet rot under the floorboards would not be expected to put in a lift to allow wheelchair users access to the office, but might be expected to offer home visits to those clients and potential clients who couldn't manage the stairs.

The test for disability is not that difficult to satisfy - up to eight million people in the UK probably count and disability covers mental as well as physical conditions. Whether an individual with anthorn's conditions is disabled would depend on a case by case basis, but even if they were, I don't think that an agent or publisher would be expected (at their own expense) to re-write significant tranches of grammar, punctuation, sentence structure etc for that author, as to do so would basically involve re-writing the whole book and would not therefore be "reasonable".

I'd agree that no-one should ask too many questions from employees/prospective service users about medical conditions, but from anthorn's perspective, I'd seriously suggest that you do whatever you can to make your work as professional as possible before you send it off. I'd say that anyone who struggles with grammar/spelling/sentence construction (for whatever reason) would be much better off spending a few quid and having their work professionally tidied up before submission than sending it as it is and asking the agent/publisher to take account of the errors. It shows that you are serious, and that has to be a good thing!

(Places book on lap, removes spectacles and nods off contentedly)

Regards,

Peter


PS: Interesting thread, by the way. I've not been down this way before.

[John Jarrold]

Yes, it boils down to the fact that no agent or publisher will take you on unless they LOVE your writing, personally and professionally, and they will not view a dyslexic or anyone else in a different manner from usual. If the book ain't WONDERFUL (and produced to a totally professional standard), it won't be taken on.

One of the novelists I worked with for a number of years in publishing is dyslexic. They delivered probably the best, cleanest typescripts I've seen.

I'll say it again: if the words aren't right, nothing else matters.

[Ian Whates]

Picking up on what John says, one of the top current British SF writers is dislexic -- an individual who also works in other capacities within the publishing field (quite possibly the same person John's referring to). So such a disability definitely does not prohibit becoming a successful writer.

[John Jarrold]

Ye, the very basic thing that every new writer must accept is that their writing will be dealt with based on its merit. The fact that they are very young, dyslexic, or anything else, is only of interest after the fact of an editor believing the WRITING - the prose, characterisation, story, dialogue, invention et al - is outstanding. And if the specific editor to whom it is submitted doesn't think that, the book will be turned down without anyone else in the company looking at it. On that front it is a level playing field, which is obviously as it should be.

[Troo]

Cheers for the in-depth, Peter. Very handy

[Anne Lyle]

Hi John, good to see you back! I missed your return to Chronicles, having been nose-down in a rough draft of Book Two of my novel series back in November. Sympathy on the back problem - I well know how frustrating it is to be otherwise healthy but unable to sit at a computer for more than a couple of minutes at a time.

OK, on to the question...

I was wondering how much of a ghetto SF&F is these days. In other media, stories with fantasy and SF elements seem pretty popular across a wide range of audiences (e.g. Pirates of the Caribbean), but does the reading public still divide sharply into those who read the genre and those who avoid it like the plague? (Aside from exceptional crossover hits like Harry Potter.) I know that some publishers are actively seeking SF that will appeal to a wider audience - is that a general trend you are seeing?

The reason I ask is that my work-in-progress doesn't seem to me to fit neatly into a genre - it has a strong historical setting but with elements that could be described as either fantasy or SF, depending on where you draw the line between the two. You'll no doubt get to see it when it's done - - but I'm also going to send it to non-specialist agents (at least, the ones who don't say "no SF or fantasy" in their listings/websites!). I guess I'm a little nervous of getting a "not enough SF/F content" response from agents/editors like yourself and a "too much SF/F" from the mainstream. Not that I'm going to let it affect my writing at this point, but I'd like to know what to expect when I do pitch it.

Thanks in anticipation

[John Jarrold]

I don't think there is any doubt that fantasy is a much broader church than it once was - you'll see other comments about the move away from directly 'Tolkienesque' fantasy - so genre publishers are certainly open to a much wider area of novels than of yore. Most of the publishers who don't publish in the genre have no interest whatsoever in SFF (some of their CEOs equate the genre with publishing sleazy erotic fiction), and the mainstream still tends to look down on it, which is their loss! So any author needs a clear view of what they are writing, and knowledge of where the genre stands in 2008.

And never confuse films with the publishing world. For decades, SF was king in movies, and fantasy didn't work or make money (until the Lord of the Rings films), whereas the exact opposite was true in books. So concentrate on the book world. Good luck!

[John Jarrold]

Originally Posted by Anne Lyle

I know that some publishers are actively seeking SF that will appeal to a wider audience - is that a general trend you are seeing?

The reason I ask is that my work-in-progress doesn't seem to me to fit neatly into a genre - it has a strong historical setting but with elements that could be described as either fantasy or SF, depending on where you draw the line between the two. You'll no doubt get to see it when it's done - - but I'm also going to send it to non-specialist agents (at least, the ones who don't say "no SF or fantasy" in their listings/websites!). I guess I'm a little nervous of getting a "not enough SF/F content" response from agents/editors like yourself and a "too much SF/F" from the mainstream. Not that I'm going to let it affect my writing at this point, but I'd like to know what to expect when I do pitch it.

Thanks in anticipation

Sorry, I should also say that historical fantasy is a major sub-section of the genre, so no problem there. But on the 'wider audience' side, be aware that Hodder, who publish Jasper Fforde, consider him a mainstream bestseller, nothing to do with SF and Fantasy (one isn't allowed to mention those words when discussing him). Editors there have specifically told me that they don't want to see any SF or Fantasy so I shouldn't bother submitting any of my clients to Hodder. Go figure.

[Anne Lyle]

Originally Posted by John Jarrold

But on the 'wider audience' side, be aware that Hodder, who publish Jasper Fforde, consider him a mainstream bestseller, nothing to do with SF and Fantasy (one isn't allowed to mention those words when discussing him). Editors there have specifically told me that they don't want to see any SF or Fantasy so I shouldn't bother submitting any of my clients to Hodder. Go figure.

Thanks for your answers, John. I guess little has changed since Ursula Le Guin wrote her essay "Why are Americans afraid of dragons?" back in the 1970s

The reason I mentioned mainstream agents is I met an agent who has asked to see my book when it's finished, simply on the basis of the historical period (of which he's a fan), and he's very successfully sold a somewhat-closer-to-mainstream alt history in recent years. But I take your point that in general, mainstream publishers just won't be interested.

[maguffin]

Originally Posted by Anne Lyle

Thanks for your answers, John. I guess little has changed since Ursula Le Guin wrote her essay "Why are Americans afraid of dragons?" back in the 1970s

The reason I mentioned mainstream agents is I met an agent who has asked to see my book when it's finished, simply on the basis of the historical period (of which he's a fan), and he's very successfully sold a somewhat-closer-to-mainstream alt history in recent years. But I take your point that in general, mainstream publishers just won't be interested.

Two things there I noticed, 1. "Americans are afraid of dragons", but only in the literary world for some reason. In movies fantasy is a hugely popular genre and make a ton of money but they can go out of fashion quickly. 2. An agent liked something because he had a personal relationship to it. That speaks volumes and if one could find out the personal likes of an agent/publisher/editor and then, if it's decently written, a writer could be way ahead of the game. I find that (only in conversation) if someone has turned something down (because of subject matter, not writing) I always ask if they know somebody who might be interested in it. Often they are glad to help and mention a few names. Then when I go to the names mentioned I drop in the name of the person who recommended them! It makes people feel you are in touch with the business and as a result are slightly more open to approach.

John, how would a writer go about finding out such info on an agent/editor? I know that what they publish or who they represent isn't always what their tastes dictate, that there are other factors in play.

[John Jarrold]

Well, in genre terms yes, look at their authors. Publishers and agents all have personal likes and dislikes, which inform the books they buy in tandem with their knowledge of the commercial market. But there isn't a list anywhere! In UK terms, the SFF imprints are not interchangeable, so take a look at the overall list of titles , as well as individual authors - and the same might be true of agents, who usually list their clients on their websites.

I can't point at myself here, since I love SF, Fantasy and Horror! Lots of other stuff, too, but those genres are 95% of my client base and will remain so. I prefer relatively sophisticated writing to thud-and-blunder stuff, but so does the market in 2008.

[Gary Compton]

Hi John,

I have a question for you, I know you are a busy editor and spend alot of time dealing with your agency clients but I wondered had you ever considered writing your own book, is it something you might like to do one day, and what genre would you do it in?

As always I look forward to your comments.

[lin robinson]

Hey, we Americans aren't afraid of dragons, man!

They're just hard to exploit.