I've been wondering about editing lately. How much is too much?

[SJAB]

To get back to the original post, just thought I would update my progress.

I have updated my letter.

Re-written my one page synopsis.

Gone through, and am still going through the full manuscript for errors. Thanks Paradox99 for the suggestions. That name has been changed by the way.

The first section reads a lot better, though I am annoyed one very bad typo crept its way in in the re-write!

I have been working on the back story, as this has the potential to be a cracking pre-sequel, also working out an outline for a sequel. There is a lot of material there to work with I have found.

Anyway, when my next rejection arrives the next submission will be the new improved version.

[John Jarrold]

Per ardua ad astra, Sue...

[Mark Robson]

Good for you, Sue. Perseverence will pay in the end, I'm sure. Good luck.

[the_faery_queen]

i edited my novel a good 7-8 times and i still had typos and silly things i hadn't noticed before. i think when you're too close to a project you start missing the obvious! so i'd not worry too much about the odd one

[John Jarrold]

Originally Posted by the_faery_queen

i think when you're too close to a project you start missing the obvious!

Absolutely. that's why I say always put a novel away for a month or more after you've finished it and then look through again with more objective eyes. You should try and get it as perfect as possible before sending it out to publishers, who find typos, etc. irritating when they are reading typescripts on trains, buses, in bed...!

[the_faery_queen]

i had! that's what i found so frustrating i had put it aside, i had had a team read it over. then i put it here and marky found 2 errors instantly

so yeah, it can still happen no matter how careful you are. but i do agree to do the best with it that you can. nothing bothers me more than people asking for a critique on their work (on lj) who haven't spell checked or grammar checked. i mean, ok, i clearly don't do that when writing my posts. im dyslexic and crap at grammar. but when it comes to presenting my work for critique, or submission, i do think you have to do the best you can. and then make others help. its professional, and not to menhtion it makes it easier for the other people to read it, which you want, if they're going to pay you for it.

it's just, no matter how careful you are, things still slip you by

[SJAB]

Originally Posted by John Jarrold

Per ardua ad astra, Sue...

John, that's the motto of the RAF if I am not mistaken. I am more likely to crash and burn than my struggles getting me to the stars. *grin*

As I said previously in this thread I haven't looked at this since Christmas, and while the typos and errors are not huge they are there. I am also finding a lot of phrases and sentences, while not incorrect, seem a little to "wordy" and overworking certain ideas. The read through has been very useful and hopefully will pull out the final lot of crap. (least I hope so.)


Mark, thanks, I will keep hitting my head against the brick wall until something gives, most likely my skull. Though I do have a piece of flash fiction being published next month in the 1st issue of an annual Aussie anthology, called Flashspec.

Faery: Wish I could get away with 8 or 9 times. I chew at my work for years. This book has been two and a half years getting to this point in its editing. I have another novel I am still working on now and then after five years! I take huge breaks between looking at them. In fact I am tempted to re-look at another work I filed away years ago, it was only 80,000 words, but could be easily expanded to 120,000 If I put my mind to it.

[the_faery_queen]

you just have to force yourself to stop, i think. i wrote my first book fairly fast, then spend two years editing and rewriting bad bits, and so on. i had to force myself to stop and submit in the end. so am glad you're getting yours ready to go off. just have to be more ruthless

[mindmagic]

I am an aspiring writer and brand new to this particular forum. While I was still in high school, I started working on a novel that started with one clear, crisp image. That image inevitable became more of the theme of the book, and doesn't actually appear in the manuscript any more. Between getting married and having three children, it took me eight years to finish writing the book. And then, the rejections came.

I became very discouraged with the book, not only because of the rejections but also because it didn't feel right when I started re-reading it for flaws. At first I tried to tinker with it, but that seemed to make it worse. So, for now, I've set it aside and moved on to other projects. There are times when I get inspiration for the other book, I take notes of it, but it with my book, and continue on with my other projects. Alot of problem areas have fallen into place in my mind just by setting it aside. When enough solutions are worked out I will go back to it. Hopefully, after I finish one of the other two novels I'm working on.

[John Jarrold]

Always remember that 99.9% of novels that are written are never published by mainstream publishing houses - and the percentage is even higher for first novels...at some point you may have to accept that this book simply isn't commercial and come to see it as extremely useful experience in the art and craft of writing, which is a lifetime occupation...

[SJAB]

Was just thinking of this thread the other day.

The work mentioned in it has been submitted to a large number of UK and US agents/small publisher's, all of whom have mentioned in their info, that the might or do consider fantasy or fantasy/romance (which this story has had a huge hint of)

Of those one page query submissions I chalked up 5 requests for sample chapters. (Most UK agents were sent sample chapters as per their submission details, all so far have passed) One agent and one publisher passed after reading the samples/full manuscript, though the publisher's letter was a personal one and showed how damn close I came. Three are still outstanding.

The big difference in to the three outstanding is that they are the "new" version of the manuscript. I cut the beginning. Moved the start of the story back well over a chapter and a half. I have also edited the life out of the thing, cutting the word count and hopefully tightening the whole thing.

Maybe I am flogging a dead horse, who knows? But is helping me over the "hump" I am going through with my current WIP. I have 2/3rds done. My story nodes as I call them, for the last 1/3 are set. I know the key elements I need to get my characters too. It is getting them there that is proving the problem. This WIP has always been hard going, right from the get go. The subject touches on a lot of personal memories of people no longer here. I am re-creating the world of their youth, the time they spoke to me of when the mood took them. For goodness sake I am using the part of the country I live in as a back drop.

Even though this is a work of fiction with a large F, each word I write, each time I describe how my town looked over 95 years ago it gives me the shakes. I am, for the first time, setting a story in real time and the real world. Even though the main subject is total fantasy the reactions of my four POV characters are as real as I can make them. These are not grand heroes, but people who were changed by a war that happened nearly a century ago. Maybe the supernatural element in my story is merely a mirror I am using to reflect what I feel about what happened to real people caught up in those times. If so, it is very frightening in some respects. Where does the make-believe fiction end and my personal opinions and feelings begin.

The using of only four POV is not helping, as each has their own strong voice, thoughts and at times widely differing opinions of the same thing. They can be very painful to write at times. I am also working up to a brutal murder. Yes, I have written about death before. The grand battle scenes, foul deeds done, but all in a fantasy setting. This is different, very different, espeically with the backdrop of a place I played as a child. The feel, smell, sights and sounds of the lock gates hard against a Victorian hump backed bridge are linked to good times, yet it screamed to be used as the site of my dark deed. It has been the more or less the same with each scene set in the town. I have gone to the place, then reserached how it looked. The small Manor house in the story, even though it and the village it is in are fictional, I drive past the house that was the template every day. The plotting is tight, the main events take place over 14 days, so each scene must dovetail into the next, each must move that character on to a set point. They are so interlinked, that often each character is moved through a scene, passing another character intent on their storyline, so being in the backgound or mentioned briefly in one scene, they become the focus in the next. But each must match in the smallest detail.

Each word I type at present brings out the doubts. Everything from my ability to write the story that is plaguing my thoughts right through to the worry I might offend people, if by some small chance this story makes it into print.

Yet I have carried this story round in my head for years waiting for the time I thought I had the skill to write it. I thought I might have reached that point last year, so I began. Now I have hit the hump in the road.

[rankelidyek]

I am also in the onlinewritingworkshop and won an editor's choice for a SF novel I'm writing (On Raven's Wings). For me, there is a reason they chose that first chapter. Smoothing out prose is simple enough. Watch sentence construction and swap phrases around. A larger problem I discovered a while back is the mechanism of a "hook". This may be where things are falling off (unless the concept of the story is not "marketable"). I feel you should always comb through and edit bit by bit, but it sounds like you should send out. Perfect your query (most important of all, sadly) and those first three paragraphs. The key to a hook is to give the mindset of your POV character. Often, a short, declarative statement is interesting and draws a reader in. Then, you reveal the thoughts behind the statement, what the character desires, then what opposes him (also works for a query). Afterward, then focus on setting and detail. I learned this by my usual method (called "the hard way") and have found that it works best for me since my strength is often bringing someone into a character's emotional frame of reference. Granted, there are other methods that can work for you as well, but this is tried and true.
Email me with any questions. I'm willing to look over the query--something that is nearly as difficult to fashion as the novel. You can also find me on the workshop. I run a couple critique groups and might be of some help. I'll look at the first chapter if you need.
There are others on the workshop who can help, I'm sure. Ruv Draba is a great crit. That said, it sounds to me like you can write. My suggestion is to get a great query, perfect the first three paragraphs then set it aside. Write another novel and keep writing. Often, the eye of the beholder is a bit blind at first. Once you sell one novel, the others may follow.
I hope this helps.

[Havlen]

I hate first chapters. I don't second-guess any other chapter near as much as I second-guess that first chapter. Does it sound smooth because it is smooth? Or does it sound smooth because I have read it 100 times?

I write multiple books at the same time. I find that writing a draft then switching to a different project and coming back to a particular draft week/months later gives me a fresher set of eyes. (I usually try to keep to a two month minimum break after a first draft.)

But, no matter, I find that several drafts down the road I still might second-guess the opening. In many ways, the entire novel depends on those first couple of pages. After all, you could have the coolest book ever, but if those first couple of pages suck then you aren't ever going to get out of the 'finding an agent' stage.

Luckily, I suck at writing queries, so I have more to worry about than just the opening. If I only worried about the opening, I'd probably go crazy. But splitting my time between the opening and the query letter seems to work out well. It keeps me from pulling the hair out of only one side of my head and becoming unbalanced.

And, trust me, when you are pulling out hair you want to make it balanced!

[lin robinson]

I think Brian has very good advice there.

Maybe I shouldn't say this, and I don't it mean it to be mean, but there is another possibility. That you just haven't written a book anybody wants.

Reasons could include: it's not the type of book a lot of people want to read.
It's poorly written and you haven't matured as a writer enough to pull it off and might be able to in a couple of years or in your next book.
It's poorly written and you aren't ever going to be able to pull if off because you just plain aren't a pro-calibre writer and never will be.
You've done all you can do and need professional advice and should accept that advice once given.

Hope that isn't too much of a dash of rain in the face, but it's the real life situation and realizing that is one piece of the puzzle that guides our actions as artists.

[SJAB]

Lin, you could be right on all counts.

But, submitting my novel, Oracle, has taught me a lot about the industry and how to produce a professional query/synopsis. This I have applied to another novel, which is actually getting both requests for samples and feedback.

Also the re-vamped version of Oracle has recently been requested by a small, but respected publisher.

I am too old and cynical to believe I am the next best thing to sliced bread I did not begin writing to make a living, or thinking I was going to be a best seller and make a fortune, I began writing, if I am honest, to prove to myself I could actually do it. The next logical step was to see if I could sell the work I had produced. And I have sold some short stories (Taken me nearly ten years of effort to do, though during that time I nearly died and am now semi handicapped, so I plead time out for part of the ten ) Selling short stories, does not mean I could sell a novel, but I enjoy trying.

Should I stop trying? Should I stop writing? Nope, not going to do that, the writing, research, and the submitting have become part of my life, something I do for me, for my own enjoyment. (when you have a family, job and all the trimmings finding a guility pleasure that costs nothing is very hard ) Yes, I moan about it, curse it, and swear I am never going to write another word, but I always come back to the machine and do it.

I have nearly finished my current effort. (The one that has caused a lot of heart ache and soul searching at times)Maybe this will be the story people want to read. Maybe this one is well-written enough to be considered pro-calibre. Who knows, I most certainly don't. I can't judge my work in that manner and don't try too. I will send it out and see what happens.

As to paying for an edit, yes in an ideal world I would love to be able to do that. But, I can't, and to be honest I won't put myself into debt to obtain it. (And I would have too, no doubt about that. ) £500 might not be a lot of money for others, but it is to me.

(There are a lot of buts in there )