Was it fullfilled?

[manephelien]

It may well be that to be balanced, the Force needs both a dark and a light side serving it, no matter how tragic the consequences may be for an individual user to fall to the dark side.

Looks like no matter what you do, you'll end up with disgruntled Jedi who are attracted by the dark side. The Old Republic clearly showed that forcing Jedi to leave their families behind was not a good choice, given that it was too late to go back if they didn't integrate well into the Jedi order after all.

Light is only light as long as there is something dark to compare it with.

[C Of K]

Originally Posted by manephelien

Looks like no matter what you do, you'll end up with disgruntled Jedi who are attracted by the dark side.

Gantoris certainly proved this. He lived with his people for quite a long time before Luke took him in for training. He saw that going with Luke would mean his destruction, and went anyway.

The Old Republic clearly showed that forcing Jedi to leave their families behind was not a good choice, given that it was too late to go back if they didn't integrate well into the Jedi order after all.

Most of the jedi who didn't qualify as knights were given other "lesser" jobs. I don't think many of them were known for rebelling. It was mainly the ones that passed onto knighthood that caused the biggest problems, like Anakin, Dooku, and Sora Bolq.

Had Anakin lived his whole life with Shmi, he still would have fallen to the dark side. The entire galaxy was fooled by Palpatine, all the jedi and everyone else. Although I don't think it was too cool to take children away from their parents at such an early age, I don't think it would have made a difference concerning the end result of the war.

On the more technical side of things, I don't think letting jedi have personal lives has too much to do with balancing the force, mainly because after becoming a jedi, Luke was considering his own peronal life in "Truce at Bakura" long before TPM came out. Balancing the force was never an issue until TPM. I believe Luke was married before TPM, as well, so there wasn't much he, as their exemplar, could do except let his students have personal lives, too.

Light is only light as long as there is something dark to compare it with.

Possibly, but a dark jedi/sith lord is not always required for darkness to flourish. Consider the events of the Black Fleet Crisis and the Corellian Trilogy. There wasn't an evil force adept insight for those six books, but there was plenty of darkness.

[Huttman]

Originally Posted by manephelien

It may well be that to be balanced, the Force needs both a dark and a light side serving it, no matter how tragic the consequences may be for an individual user to fall to the dark side.

Light is only light as long as there is something dark to compare it with.

A house divided falls in on itself. If the Force is somehow or directly connected to a Deity or God in their universe, then it does not need the dark side serving it and is complete in itself. Developing selfishness, greed, or envy will introduce the individual to the path of the dark side. How far one wants to go down that path is a matter of choice, not predestination. It was more than Anakin leaving his mother at an early age that led him astray. But it was still his choice. He had many events happen in his life that he could have gone either way with. Whatever bad seeds were in Anakin even from an early age, they really were nurtured over many years by those who did not have his best interests at heart. The Jedi and the Sith were both guilty of this.

If you do not have the dark to compare with the light, you just have innocence. And without the antagonist or a conflict, one does not sell many books. I am familiar with very little EU stuff, and I'm sure a lot of it is quite good, but the bad has to end sometime. An eternal conflict sounds so exausting. How long does the bad/dark side have to exist before the point is established, it does not work! It only serves itself and does not give a damn about anyone else. Life works best when we are our brothers keeper.

What I would like to see is how the Sith were started in the first place. I think that fall from grace would make an extremly interesting story (trilogy?)

[Harleyquin]

Originally Posted by Huttman

If you do not have the dark to compare with the light, you just have innocence.

Wellllll if your going to get all philosophical and everything technically you dont have innocence you simply have a state.

People are looking at the force in "GOOD / EVIL" but in reality your just following the dogma. If you want to get into the argument lets look at what the "light" side is and the "dark" side in its basic elements.

The Light side is all about control, precision... AKA ORDER.
The Darkside is about emotion and passion... AKA CHAOS.

What Anakin did, and then latterly Luke was exactly balance.

These two people embraced BOTH sides of the coin.. first they chose order with its medetation its thought and its considered approach to things - then both where drawn through strong emotion into the dark side - the chaos that emotion brings that clouds judgement, then back to order again.

People characterise Chaos as evil simply becuase the dont understand that without chaos there would be little really to live for...

The Ultimate balance of the force is NOT the Jedi way.. NOR is it the Sith. the actuall balance is the combination of the two - the ability to be calm and collected, and precise when needed - then to go in to a chaotic rage when required and back again.

Yoda was no different to the Emporer - they Both were blinded by their "Points of View"

I'm looking forward to the point in the books (or the series to come???) where they finally start training a "force" order that embraces both sides of the coin.

[Huttman]

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

Wellllll if your going to get all philosophical and everything technically you dont have innocence you simply have a state.

And what would you call that 'state of being'? In simple terms I would call it innocence. And being good/innocent does not mean that you do not know what bad is, you just avoid doing it because it does not work for the individual or collective well being of things. Yes. good and evil are a point of view, but it has so much to do with motive and understanding.

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

The Darkside is about emotion and passion... AKA CHAOS.

That sounds like a Vulcan point of view. There is nothing wrong with emotion and passion, It's how you use them or it's how you let them use you. As a matter of fact, if one is not passionate about life and what you're doing in it, you are going to be one hum-drum person. I assume the chaos you're refering to is not the theory one in which everything has a pattern although it might be too large for most to understand now, but you're refering to the all too human kind of the mob or anarchy type. And while it is true emotion can give a person internal conflicts, it's how we deal with them and how that effects others that is important.

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

These two people embraced BOTH sides of the coin.. first they chose order with its medetation its thought and its considered approach to things - then both where drawn through strong emotion into the dark side - the chaos that emotion brings that clouds judgement, then back to order again.

Actually, Luke did not embrace the dark side. He did use it for a moment and almost immediatly realized he was repeating the same mistake his father made and then effectively said screw you to the Emperor. It is unavoidable that we will make errors in life, but I swear one of the secrets to life is what one does after the fact, to continue in the mistake or own up to it. Oh, and as for Anakin, he really did follow the dark side only begrudgingly.

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

People characterise Chaos as evil simply becuase the dont understand that without chaos there would be little really to live for...

huh?

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

Yoda was no different to the Emporer - they Both were blinded by their "Points of View"

Yes, nothing more complicated than perception. Both were right, both were wrong, what were their motives?

[manephelien]

huh?

You answered your own question:

As a matter of fact, if one is not passionate about life and what you're doing in it, you are going to be one hum-drum person.

A totally hum-drum life wouldn't be worth living, although admittedly I wouldn't enjoy utter chaos all the time either.

It's a bit like individualism vs. communism. A total subjugation of the individual will to society's needs is going to make for an apathetic, brainwashed and ultimately unhappy population where someone is going to rebel at some point. A totally individualistic society is going to trample everyone but the very strong, and most people will still be unhappy. A happy medium where people's choices affect their lives in both a good and a bad way combined with a safety net and laws to prevent the worst excesses seems to work best.

[Huttman]

That was clever observation, manephelien, I like that. I honestly did not know that I had. Perhaps an answer (huh?) with a little less sarcasm and attempt at humor would have been better, though. Personally I can think a lifetime's worth, and that would be just the start, of things I could and would like to live for that would not involve or have the desire for a chaotic situation. I am so facinated with life, it's beauty, intricacies, depth, possibilities, mystery, challenges, new horizons, varieties, treasures, innovations, design, etc., etc., that a desire for an out of control, disorderly, mad, chaotic life or situation would be the farthest thing from my mind, and I will feel much more complete at that time because I have the hope that not only is that a possibility but it will be achieved by everyone someday. What am I talking about? Well, at one time people used to wish for and even pray for peace on Earth, now perhaps that is more science-fiction/fantasy than Star Wars and is just said by some because it has been said for so long that it is only habit. It is a dark time for the rebellion indeed...

Curious, manephelien, would you enjoy utter chaos some of the time?

[C Of K]

Would life be worth living without chaos?

Of course, no one has ever given testimony of a life without chaos. It would be difficult to make an observation on what such a life would be.

The best we can do is hypothesize, because as of yet, there is no real way to test this.

We do know that a life of utter chaos would be horrendous, and if you take it to an end result, there would be no life.

Must there be a perfect balance of both for life to even exist? Interesting questions that could lead into circles.

All I know is that right now, life happens while I'm busy making other plans, so

[Huttman]

The ability to dream it so makes it real for me. Everything I base that assumtion on also affects me in the present condition of things with that effect transposing on other people in a very positive albeit unspoken sort of way. If I can imagine it, then it could be so. I like the commentary Frodo gave at the end of RotK when he said basically how can one pick up the threads of a life after so much devestation (not exactly quoted), and Sam gave a speech similiar in The Two Towers. Time does heal a lot of things and if one should survive terrible times all the more would that one stick to a proper course in life knowing just how bad it could get by seeing it firsthand. My favourite quote from LotRs (yes I know it's a Star Wars thread) is ...all we have to do is decide what to do with the time given to us...

[C Of K]

Huttman, you are a credit to the pursuit of innocence.

Actually, I was attempting to agree with you, but spoke out of my own shortsightedness. My previous post was originally directed toward this quote...

People characterise Chaos as evil simply becuase the dont understand that without chaos there would be little really to live for...

But ended up encompassing the current direction of this thread as a whole. (oops!) Ah well, even though I'm uncertain about life without chaos, I do agree that the below quote can make it possible.

The ability to dream it so makes it real for me. Everything I base that assumtion on also affects me in the present condition of things with that effect transposing on other people in a very positive albeit unspoken sort of way. If I can imagine it, then it could be so. I like the commentary Frodo gave at the end of RotK when he said basically how can one pick up the threads of a life after so much devestation (not exactly quoted), and Sam gave a speech similiar in The Two Towers. Time does heal a lot of things and if one should survive terrible times all the more would that one stick to a proper course in life knowing just how bad it could get by seeing it firsthand. My favourite quote from LotRs (yes I know it's a Star Wars thread) is ...all we have to do is decide what to do with the time given to us...

Your focus determines your reality.

[Huttman]

Originally Posted by C Of K

Interesting questions that could lead into circles.

I like to try to make anything work for the postitve. One could say that, at least with a circle you find yourself back where you started from, hopefully with an answer (or to re-examine the query) and a few more questions to make a few more circles. Some people wander off and never find their way back.

[harryfielder]

I remember this in 1976.....

STAR WARS…DIRECTOR GEORGE LUCAS…

After finishing a couple of Doctor Who’s Central Casting sent me to E.M.I.
Studios to work on another space film for seven days.
I did ask them if they had any other work because I was fed up with wearing space outfits and the like… (Little did I know about STAR WARS).
There must have been about fifty Supporting Artists gathered on the first day, some putting on white space type suits, some being fitted out in weird make up and costumes and the rest of us waited around to see what we were going to be.
We had plenty of time to sit around chatting and playing the odd game of cards.
When myself and a chap called Ronnie Conrad got a call to go to the wardrobe dept, They dressed us in black space type suits but without a facemask…(Were they telling us we were ugly enough to look like aliens).
When we were dressed we sat at the back of the set and waited to do our bit.
I got talking to a giant of a man (Dave Prowse) from the West Country and he told me he was playing a character called ‘’Daft Ada’’.
I found out later that day he was playing ‘’DARTH VADER’’ (It must have been Dave’s strong Bristol accent that made it sound wrong).
Ronnie and I did some odd bits during the week and then the 2nd A.D. called for us to do a bit of business with our old mate ‘’DARTH’’.
We were going to arrest Princess LEIA (Carrie Fisher)…
Carrie’s parents were Eddie Fisher (singer) and Debbie Reynolds (singer/actress). Debbie starred in the film ‘’Singing In The Rain’’ in 1952 and I, as a twelve year old, was in love with her... (It soon passed).
Anyway lets get back to ‘’DAFT’’.
Darth, Ronnie and I walk along some corridors and then into the cell where The Princess was being held. Darth had all the lines to say while Ronnie and I stood there looking ugly. (Typecast)
In between lighting the set Carrie was very chatty and asked what else we had done in films. (Has she got that much time to spare?)
I also met Harrison Ford and was to work with him again over the next few years.
Star Wars was the highest grossing money film that I ever worked on.
Some say it took a Billion Dollars at the box office and video sales…

Twenty five years later I am held in deep respect for being one of "DAFT ADA’S" men, by my Grandchildren… Thanks Mr Lucas…

Aitch,