Everyone needs a conspiracy theory....

[TK-421]

Originally Posted by viZion

Oh, thanks. I've never heard that theory. I guess women pretending to be men is the theme of the week.

I hear the music from The Crying Game playing in the background. Oh wait, that was about men pretending to be women.

[Lubbock]

Robert Barathorn was a king
Of his rebellion everyone did sing
He married Cersei out of duty
But it was Jaime that got to claim her booty.
His brother was named Renly
And with a Tyrell he was o´so friendly.
Stannis was the last brother
And he was quite the bother.
Robert invited his friend Eddard to town
Foul things were going down.
Robert loved to go HUnting
Until he didnt hear the boar grunting.
Eddard knew of the incest truth
Cersei did not put on her travelling boots
Eddard failed the Game of Thrones
Sansa could only bemoan
Eddard thought taking the Black was wise
Illyn chopped off Eddards head with Ice
So ends the first tale of intrigue and sorrow
cant wait to read book two cover to cover


..................
Blame Boaz he started

[Boaz]

Tiggers just bounce around... we can't be blamed if you try to follow. My point is that Lyanna is the Yentl of Westeros. Mayhaps that is why Jeor gave Longclaw to Jon... Come on, seriously now folks, Valyrian Steel blades are priceless... would someone actually give one away to a turncoat bastard? No, the Old Bear knew Lya was Ben and he owed her for certain nocturnal assistance... the sword was payment.

[viZion]

I can't tell if you're being serious, Boaz, but I'll just act like you are . Mormont wasn't giving the blade to a turncloack bastard. He was giving it to the next Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Maybe John will then give that blade to his successor.

Hm, I really only skimmed over the recent discussion about ravens and crows. Did anyone happen to mention that maybe Mormont had warging abilities and went into his raven right before he was killed?

[Boaz]

I'm always serious, especially when I'm not.

Mormont would have bonded with a bear, imo, before a raven.

Also, I have never understood why Mormont gave the sword to Jon instead of willing it to Maege or her successor? He either believed in the NW to his core or he was a colder hearted man than even Tywin Lannister.

[DeannaBelle]

Beofre the Lord Commander died, he wanted reconcilation with his son. ir at least he wanted to offer him forgiveness. The sword was a fmaily sowrd, and it should have gone to Jora - is that his name? - Mormont. Maybe it will. Jon has no children. Maybe he never will. Then again, The Lord Commander replaced the hilt with a wolf.

No, Mormont was not more coldhearted than Tywin Lannister. Not possile, ser! I think he believes not just in the NW but in Jon. Jon is a man of honor. He would do the right thing" by Mormont. he would pass it on the right person, wether that be the nextLC of the NW or back to Jora Mormont.

[viZion]

Originally Posted by Boaz

Mormont would have bonded with a bear, imo, before a raven.

Bears running around in castles aren't too common. If Mormont wants to keep himself close to Jon and the Night's Watch, then entering his raven's body is perfect. He plants himself in the castle and gets Jon the job of Lord Commander. Can you imagine a bear running into the room instead? It probably wouldn't have the same effect and would definitely lead to a dead bear, Janos Slynt as the new Lord Commander, and Jon in a jail cell.

[Boaz]

I agree that a raven is less threatening than a bear. I agree ravens are more common in castles than bears. But the comparison was made because the Mormont family emblem is a black bear on a green field. I was going for a thematic animal, not a practical one.

But on the other hand, a bear might not be as implausible as you might think. Just remember Ghost...

Originally Posted by viZion

Bears running around in castles aren't too common.

And direwolves are?!?! Theon or Jory says in the first chapter of AGOT that no direwolves were seen south of the Wall in a hundred years.

Originally Posted by viZion

Can you imagine a bear running into the room instead?

Can you imagine a direwolf running into the Lord Commander's room?

Originally Posted by viZion

It probably wouldn't have the same effect and would definitely lead to a dead bear,

They never killed the direwolf.

In summary, I must say that I like to argue because I can.

[viZion]

Boaz, I disagree. That's it, I got nothing else.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

First and foremost, Maege and her line are Jeor's sister and nieces.

So with that in mind I think when he signed over Bear Island to his son and took the Black to still be useful he emotionally detached himself from his ancestral holding. So when Jorah was deemed a traitor and fled the Stark justice there was a difference between the Rulers of Bear Island and his line. In his mind (and this is just getting into his psychology) his line was tainted, and the sword was likely to die with him. He already made the commitment to the Nights Watch, so when the sword came back to him, it was that line it was going to go down.

Then along comes Jon. A do-over for his one real failing as a father. I think Longclaw came out a little easy, but Jon was Jorahs heir. Longclaw was a way to solidify the relationship, a way to make the succession clear. In his mind he was handing the sword to his heir. I think its legit.

Other points to consider ...its cool for Jon to have a cool sword, Dacey and her brood dont seem to use swords (Axes and Monrningstars seemed appropro), and its a Bastard Sword. Thats just a gimmee.

[Boaz]

viZ, I had nothing to being with except contentiousness... thanks for taking my gibes in good spirits.

Egg, If you had a Valyrian Steel Blade would you use a morningstar? Yeah, that's what I thought.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Feeling frisky eh Boaz? Of all the points I make thats the one you decide discredits the whole argument? Thats the point of discourse you wish to embark upon?

Yer right of course (go ahead and parse this bit out and quote me every chance you get)

What if its a Valyrian Morningstar?

Could I justify its use then?

This is my last post for a little bit. Im getting on a plane soon.

[viZion]

I'm actually surprised we don't see more types of Valyrian weapons. We've seen swords, of course. There was one dagger and then we heard about a Valyrian axe on Dragonstone (or was it one of the other islands surrounding Dragonstone?). That's really it.

[Boaz]

Egg, mayhaps I was not clear above... Given a choice between a regular morningstar and a Valyrian Steel blade, which would a knight of Westeros choose? The Valyrian every time.

Valyrian steel has two amazing properties in my opnion. First, it is very lightweight yet very strong. Jon and Brienne both marvel at how fast their cuts and parries seem to be with a Valyrian steel sword compared to the regular steel swords they've been used to. The light weight makes the wielder into a faster swordsman than he was previously... plus I think there is an added benefit of a psychological advantage added in. The wielder thinks I'm faster now, so I'm better.

Second, Valyrian steel can be sharpened to an unbelievable and an unequaled extent. This edge allows the wielder to cut into regular steel. It makes a perfectly full plated knight with a shield seem suddenly vulnerable. Jaime remembered Ser Barristan's duel with Simon Toyne, the Smiling Knight... Toyne had to stop and get a new sword because after so much hard fighting his own had become blunted. I get the feeling that never happens with Valyrian steel. The added psychological detriment is imposed upon the opponent... Oh no, that thing will cut my wooden shield to ribbons! I need help or I need to run away... NOW!

The total psychological benefit is... I'm faster than I ever was! I have a weapon that will cause fear in my opponent! I'm unbeatable!

I can see how the weight of Valyrian steel could make a morningstar faster. I can see how armor could be improved also because of the light weight. But both would be missing out on the second key aspect of Valyrian steel... the blade's edge.

Yes, we do hear of an axe and at least one dagger made from Valyrian steel. The axe most certainly benefits from both the weight and the edge. I don't know that daggers suffer from weight issues, but putting that edge on a weapon made for stabbing would certainly help.

Now Egg, you make good arguments for Jeor's giving Longclaw to Jon over Maege. I can buy his shift in thinking, priorities, and allegiance from that of a minor baronial family to that of the military order for the salvation of the world. I agree that is what GRRM intends for us to see (and I agree with it on the surface and I'll probably make your arguments for you in the following sentences), but I'm playing the devil's advocate somewhat by wondering how the patriarch of a landed medieval family, a man of minor peerage, could just give away his familiy's most valuable heirloom. Not even the Lannisters had a Valyrian Steel blade, but the Mormonts somehow did. That symbol of power, nobility, and honor is not something to be lightly dismissed or tossed aside.

In bestowing Longclaw upon Jon Snow, his steward, his squire, and his body servant, the Old Bear must have finally (if not previously) taken the psychological step that the work of the Night's Watch superceded even that of his own family. I know that the NW takes vows of renunciation of family and bonds of loyalty from their previous lives, but merely obeying the rules and believing them in the core of one's soul are two different things.

I seem to recall that Mormont once said to Jon something like, "Your father sent you to us." The Old Bear seemed to view Jon as this generational gift of the Starks to the NW. Benjen had been the last generation's gift. Ben was intelligent, well trained, capable as a leader, and had influence with the Starks. So Mormont wanted that to continue through Jon.

Edit: Hope your flight is a safe one, Egg. Godspeed.

[Charming Serpent]

I think the Old Bear gave Jon the sword for a very very simple reason: The right man deserved the right blade. Simple as that. He owed Jon for saving his life. Not just from a would be human attacker, but from an unnatural thing from the grave. The very stories that for 8,000 years were told to curdle ur blood etc etc ..

His very son had disgraced his house and fled. He probably thought he never would see his son again considering that if his son shows up in Westeros he is a dead man. Especially since everyone knows Ned Starks rep for holding up honor and delivering punishment. He also wasnt extremely close to those of his house that remained. He hadnt seen them in decades.

I know I wouldnt want to leave a glorious weapon like that after I died, not knowing who it would go to or what would become of it. So why not give it to ur successor, the very person who not only saved ur very life, but was able to provide u with some of the answers to fight these creatures that ur watch had long forgotten .... Fire and Blood

Fire for real, I just like that house motto so much :P