Everyone needs a conspiracy theory....

[Tysha]

If GRRM really wanted to disguise his beard, and turn into an extremely beautiful young woman, he should just spell his name backwards. Have anyone seen any MRRG lately?

[Tysha]

Originally Posted by Boaz

My own favorite theory on Tywin also suffers from no evidence whatsoever. The theory is that Shae and Bronn were working for Tywin from at least the night before the battle where Tywin defeats Roose Bolton. Knowing that whores are Tyrion's weakness, Tywin buys Bronn and has Bronn bring Shae to Tyrion. Both Bronn and Shae are vague concerning her origins. Shae seems over eager, in my opinion, to take a hideous dwarf (even a fabulously rich one) as her lover. Bronn and Shae feed info to Tywin (I'm sure the number of his informants was second only to Varys'.) Tywin expressly forbids Tyrion to take Shae to court knowing that Tyrion would then indeed take her to spite his father. How did Tywin stay abreast of the Small Council? Cersei, Baelish, Varys, Pycelle and Tyrion would only send Tywin certain information, but Shae and Bronn could easily inform him of all of the Hand's comings and goings. Bronn abandoned Tyrion for a title, Tyrion thought Cersei behind this, but in actuality Tywin had already assumed the Handship and the Regency. At Tyrion's trial, Shae's testimony was obviously bought or coerced... if it was Cersei, why was Shae not then immediately shipped off? if it was Tywin, would this explain why Shae was in his bed? Cersei seemed shocked that Tywin would take a common whore to his bed... but what if Shae was an accomplished spy and courtesan (a Geisha, if you will) in Tywin's employ? After Tywin's death, Bronn makes it clear that he disdains Cersei by naming his stepson after Tyrion. Bronn then defies Cersei's assassin and her authority. I don't think he'd have done it if he'd been in her pay, nor would she have treated him thus if she'd been paying him.

The problem with my theory is that there is not one bit of evidence... it's all conjecture.

I like this theory - although I do not have a sound proof as well, it seems to explain several things. So here are some more hints to support this theory:
1."And this is Bronn, a sellsword of no particular allegiance. He has already changed sides twice in the short time I’ve known him, you and he ought to get on famously, Father.”
A changing sides sellsword? Tywin saw in that a useful trait... Well Tywin needs Tyrion, but have no trust or love for him, so a close spy would be very useful.
2. Tywin has seen Tysha, so he knows Tyrion's taste in women better than Bron.
3. Shae wanted to be brought to court in spite of Tyrion's fear and warnings of his father's wrath. She's not stupid, so why would she like to risk herself that much? I can see only one reason: she knows that she is safe from Tywin's rage... because she is his spy.
4. Shae seems very interested to be involved in Tyrion's business as the Hand, and not only to be his whore. Does she love Tyrion so much that she wants him to share everything with her? Her testimony at Tyrion's trial shows otherwise.
5. We know how Cercei treats with "Tyrion's creatures" - she tries to kill them, and does not try to take them over to her side. So it does seem that Bron's title and marriage come from Tywin, whose favorite tactic is to buy the foes that he can use. Or was it a reward for a good service - spying on Tyrion?
6. When Tyrion finds Shae in Tywin's bed, she wears the golden chain of the Hand, a symbol of Lord Tywin's highest title. I can't imagine Lord Tywin Lannister allow a casual whore to wear this chain. However, if Shae is his faithful spy and courtesan, that's another matter.
7. Shae sounds very eager during her testimony - eager to please; but it seems more than just trying to please Cersei - it sounds more like trying to convince her master (Lord Tywin?) that she has not enjoyed being with Tyrion. Even if she knows that she is safe because she works for Tywin, Shae is also his lover, so it is important for her to show him that she thinks that Tywin is the true "giant of Lannister"

[Young stormlord]

Originally Posted by Tysha

I like this theory - although I do not have a sound proof as well, it seems to explain several things. So here are some more hints to support this theory:
1."And this is Bronn, a sellsword of no particular allegiance. He has already changed sides twice in the short time I’ve known him, you and he ought to get on famously, Father.”
A changing sides sellsword? Tywin saw in that a useful trait... Well Tywin needs Tyrion, but have no trust or love for him, so a close spy would be very useful.
2. Tywin has seen Tysha, so he knows Tyrion's taste in women better than Bron.
3. Shae wanted to be brought to court in spite of Tyrion's fear and warnings of his father's wrath. She's not stupid, so why would she like to risk herself that much? I can see only one reason: she knows that she is safe from Tywin's rage... because she is his spy.
4. Shae seems very interested to be involved in Tyrion's business as the Hand, and not only to be his whore. Does she love Tyrion so much that she wants him to share everything with her? Her testimony at Tyrion's trial shows otherwise.
5. We know how Cercei treats with "Tyrion's creatures" - she tries to kill them, and does not try to take them over to her side. So it does seem that Bron's title and marriage come from Tywin, whose favorite tactic is to buy the foes that he can use. Or was it a reward for a good service - spying on Tyrion?
6. When Tyrion finds Shae in Tywin's bed, she wears the golden chain of the Hand, a symbol of Lord Tywin's highest title. I can't imagine Lord Tywin Lannister allow a casual whore to wear this chain. However, if Shae is his faithful spy and courtesan, that's another matter.
7. Shae sounds very eager during her testimony - eager to please; but it seems more than just trying to please Cersei - it sounds more like trying to convince her master (Lord Tywin?) that she has not enjoyed being with Tyrion. Even if she knows that she is safe because she works for Tywin, Shae is also his lover, so it is important for her to show him that she thinks that Tywin is the true "giant of Lannister"

Bronn being Tywin's spy has already been discussed. Main reason for him not being is that Tyrion didn't hire him in first place, he already was in tavern when Tyrion came in. Shae is not so good as a spy either. She could rarely hear any secrets in her position as Tyrion's whore.

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by Tysha

I am a vile little man, I confess it. My crimes and sins are beyond counting...

Hilarious!

MRRG? Also, hilarious.

MTR, yes it rubs that my intellectual ramblings have never been mistaken for Martin's.

As for Bronn... Bronn may have had dealings with Tywin in the past but was not currently employed... he'd have known at once that this was his chance to get back in good with the richest man in the realm. This explains his fighting at Tyrion's trial. It would also explain his not fighting at Tyrion's second trial.

As for Shae... she was not "a chance meeting" on the road. She was found in Tywin's camp. The golden necklace is a clue I'd overlooked! I think that strengthens the Shae as Tywin's spy theory... that's the closest thing I have to proof.

Sorry, Aegon. I swore to myself that I'd not expound on this theory again... I'm weak.

[Tysha]

Originally Posted by Young stormlord

Bronn being Tywin's spy has already been discussed. Main reason for him not being is that Tyrion didn't hire him in first place, he already was in tavern when Tyrion came in..

Yes, but Tywin could hire him when Tyrion came with him and has introduced him as a "twice side changing sellsword" - that gave Tywin an idea to hire him. After all Bronn gets a "Ser", ind it's not likely for just being brave and good fighter.

Originally Posted by Young stormlord

Shae is not so good as a spy either. She could rarely hear any secrets in her position as Tyrion's whore.

Yes, but she has tried.
I didn't though about Bronn and Shae as Tywins spies before Boaz has suggested it. But I couldn't understand the - "he made me call him my giant of Lannister" thingy, ok, Cesei had bought her, but why to be SO evil, why? If it was just for the gold she could say that he is bad, he killed Joffrey, he made her sleep with him, he had stolen her from her fiance, BUT, "My giant of Lanister"?! - that is just evil, that is just to embarrass him, to hurt him, to please Tywin (I almost cried when I've read this part )

[Tysha]

Originally Posted by Boaz

Hilarious!

MRRG? Also, hilarious.

MTR, yes it rubs that my intellectual ramblings have never been mistaken for Martin's.

As for Bronn... Bronn may have had dealings with Tywin in the past but was not currently employed... he'd have known at once that this was his chance to get back in good with the richest man in the realm. This explains his fighting at Tyrion's trial. It would also explain his not fighting at Tyrion's second trial.

As for Shae... she was not "a chance meeting" on the road. She was found in Tywin's camp. The golden necklace is a clue I'd overlooked! I think that strengthens the Shae as Tywin's spy theory... that's the closest thing I have to proof.

Sorry, Aegon. I swore to myself that I'd not expound on this theory again... I'm weak.[/left]

I'm sorry, it's me who made you weak... But it IS make sense (Unlike -Tyrion as a Targaryen bastard lol)

[Young stormlord]

Originally Posted by Tysha

Yes, but Tywin could hire him when Tyrion came with him and has introduced him as a "twice side changing sellsword" - that gave Tywin an idea to hire him. After all Bronn gets a "Ser", ind it's not likely for just being brave and good fighter.

Yes, but she has tried.
I didn't though about Bronn and Shae as Tywins spies before Boaz has suggested it. But I couldn't understand the - "he made me call him my giant of Lannister" thingy, ok, Cesei had bought her, but why to be SO evil, why? If it was just for the gold she could say that he is bad, he killed Joffrey, he made her sleep with him, he had stolen her from her fiance, BUT, "My giant of Lanister"?! - that is just evil, that is just to embarrass him, to hurt him, to please Tywin (I almost cried when I've read this part )

Ok I actually like this theory, just telling that it was discussed already

[Tysha]

Originally Posted by Young stormlord

Ok I actually like this theory, just telling that it was discussed already

EVERYTHING has been discussed! Just one more kick, the horse is dead anyway, it doesn't hurt

[AandKsavetheDAY]

Originally Posted by Tysha

EVERYTHING has been discussed! Just one more kick, the horse is dead anyway, it doesn't hurt

Haha!!! So true! Good thing I didn't start the series when AGoT came out in, what, 1996? I would have been really tired of waiting! (And also a very advanced and emotionally mature six year old )
Anyways, I think that this forum makes me even more impatient, but I stick around 'cuz i don't want to be in the dark when Dance comes out. And it's a freakin sweet way to spend my time!

P.S... I really do like the Tywin=Ringmaster of spies theory... It actually makes sense- and seems just like something that he would do. Plus, it would explain Shae's presence w/ Tywin the night he's killed. Frankly, it would explain a lot of stuff, yet nothing explains it.
And if this were the case, why would Bronn name the kid Tyrion? Maybe regret? And I don't really think any sellsword would like to fight a battle (vs. Gregor) that seems unwinnable- they're not known for their valor...
I'm not dissing the theory, I actually really like it. I'm just also kind of excited to see what your counter-arguments will be!

[Tysha]

Originally Posted by AandKsavetheDAY

Haha!!! So true! Good thing I didn't start the series when AGoT came out in, what, 1996? I would have been really tired of waiting! (And also a very advanced and emotionally mature six year old ) !

I feel the same, I have discovered ASOIAF about 6 months ago, and have read those 4 books in a row, I can't imagine waiting so long between the books!(But now we have the opportunity to do so...)

Originally Posted by AandKsavetheDAY

P.S... I really do like the Tywin=Ringmaster of spies theory... It actually makes sense- and seems just like something that he would do. Plus, it would explain Shae's presence w/ Tywin the night he's killed. Frankly, it would explain a lot of stuff, yet nothing explains it.
And if this were the case, why would Bronn name the kid Tyrion? Maybe regret? And I don't really think any sellsword would like to fight a battle (vs. Gregor) that seems unwinnable- they're not known for their valor...
I'm not dissing the theory, I actually really like it. I'm just also kind of excited to see what your counter-arguments will be!

I agree.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Wait a second....I cant let this pass without asking a few questions....

1) Why would Tywin place a spy with Tyrion? His actions have been relatively public....if he going to spy on Tyrion why is he such a poor judge of character not to do the same with Jaime and Cersei? What does he gain from this?

2) So Bronn and Shae? Why not Pod as well? Once you start placing a conspiracy on everyone where does it end? Theres no actual evidence to support this....just conjecture about what may make sense. Just as long as you agree with that we can have a discussion.

3) Bronns actions are completely in tune with a sellsword with a soft streak. He agrees to fight in the Aerie because the champion is inept and there is a life changing prize at stake....he doesnt fight at Tyrions trial because neither of those are true. In fact why would he hitch his wagon to Lollys (sp?) with Tywin his employer. Certainly the gain from marrying that lackwit only marginally outweighed the potential winfall his actions for Tywin would net. If he is really as super-hyper-unimaginably successful as you claim then he could expect a baronet from the Hand of the King at least.

4) Shae was absolutely as opportunistic as she is shown to be. Do we forget how Tyrion gained her as an "employee"? She didnt even blink as she jumped ship. There is absolutely no reason to believe she wouldnt jump ship again to Tywins bed. In fact that "Giant of Lannister" dig was probably just her way of getting into Tywin's good side.

5) Bronn naming his child Tyrion....after a supposed Kingslayer...isnt the actions of a man who is a spy. I dont see super duper spy Bronn being that soft. But super duper sellsword Bronn could be....

I didnt even bring up Shaes insolence to Sansa.....

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

Wait a second....I cant let this pass without asking a few questions....

You took the words out of my mouth...

Egg, how do you know he's not spying on Jaime and Cersei? He's owned Pycelle since Robert's Rebellion at least. Varys told Eddard that Boros and Meryn belonged to Cersei, but are they not properly placed to spy on Jaime? Cersei and Jaime could easily think they control Pycelle, Boros, and Meryn while Tywin is paying them to spy on his children.

But what spy is going to tell Tywin that his twins have an incestuous relationship? I think that's a no-win situation for the spy... just keep your mouth closed.

Tyrion's handling of negotiating alliances to the Martells, Tyrells, and Arryns were conducted in secrecy. He kidnapped Tommen and hid him from Stannis, Renly, and Robb. He sent Myrcella in secrecy to Dorne. He kept the chain a secret from Stannis.

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

Once you start placing a conspiracy on everyone where does it end? Theres no actual evidence to support this....just conjecture about what may make sense. Just as long as you agree with that we can have a discussion.

I've never disagreed with this... this is the beauty of the conspiracy theory! It never ends!

Oops! Gotta run. Will post later.

[Boaz]

Sorry, I had to leave in the middle of my last post. But here's the finish...

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

Bronn naming his child Tyrion....after a supposed Kingslayer...

Kinslayer... no G. Tyrion is the Kinslayer, Jaime's the Kingslayer.

I agree that Bronn's and Shae's actions are on par with who they are... but don't you want to find something deeper here?

Two actions of Bronn's surprise me. First, he suggest regicide to Tyrion in front of Varys. He said the unthinkable to the Hand (the King's uncle) and the Master of Whisperers... the two people who could crush him like a worm... yet he got off scot free. (Is that term un-PC nowadays? If so then pronounce worm like Brendan Gleason's character in Braveheart... "loik uh wuhrrehm.") How did these two let him get away with this?

Second, he flouts Cersei's wishes openly in AFFC. With the power of Casterly Rock, Highgarden, the Twins, and supposedly Dorne behind her and with the Vale and the Iron Islands sitting this one out how does Bronn have the gall to forcibly resist Cersei's men? Who is backing him?

In some other thread I suggested that Varys has been Bronn's boss all along. Of course this is at odds with my own theory that Tywin held his purse strings, but it might explain Bronn's above actions.

As for Shae, why was she in Tywin's bed? I find it hard to believe that Tywin wanted Tyrion's leftovers. If Shae was Tywin's in the first place, it better explains his readily taking her to bed.

While I'm speaking of Tywin and Shae... Isn't Tywin supposedly the one who caught his father's mistress wearing his mother's jewelry? Curious how Shae was wearing Tywin's Hand necklace, one of the most famous pieces of jewelry in the land, when Tyrion found her? The more I think about Tywin and all the Lannisters, the more I think they all need some therapy.

Now back to what I was really talking about... how did Varys find Shae so fast when she arrived in KL? What if Shae already worked for Varys? Perhaps she sent word that she was back in town.

Yes, I know that I'm proposing the Shae and Bronn either worked for Varys or Tywin or both. I don't know the answers.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Actually Kingslayer is correct there Boazie....Tyrion was convicted for killing a king after all.

I think Bronns actions you mentioned (saying regicide in front of Varys and standing in open contempt of Cersei) can best be attributed to his arrogance. He was arrogant you know. His actions at Castle Stokeworth are easily explained as being his only possible course. Cersei sent someone to kill him, that person failed, he chooses not to run immediately because that option is open to him anytime. So he mocks Cersei with his castle full of loyal retainers. He can run whenever opposition is arrayed against him, until then live a little. Hadnt Tywin taken a crossbow bolt to his "Little Lion" at that point anyhow?

Shae with the necklace is curious. But the fact that Tywin took her to bed anyhow shows that public and private Tywin were two different people. In fact I would go so far as to say that Tywin is exactly like everyone who ever publicly abhorred the way his parents raised him and then found himself being the exact same way as they got older.

Now that Ive addressed the majority of your points (Ill leave out the "Spy wouldnt rat out incestous twins" line because I think thats ridiculous). Tywin didnt spy on Tyrion because he didnt have much respect for him. Oh sure he felt Tyrion had a little low cunning but at the end of the day he felt Tyrion was inconsequential. Tyrions entire goal was to prove that wrong.

[Boaz]

Convicted,yes. Actually guilty, no. Jaime, Tyrion, Lancel, Olenna, Drogo, Mirri Maz Duur, Roose, Euron, Sansa, Brienne, Melisandre, Walder Frey... have I missed any actual kingslayers or those convicted by public opinion? Next in line to die are Mance, Euron, Tommen, Stannis, and Dany. The most likely kingslayers (or queenslayers) in my opinion are Mormont, Selmy, Jaime, Davos, and Asha. The next possible characters to commit regicide are Jaqen, Arya, Loras, Darkstar, Lancel, and the Blackfish. But this is all off topic anyway.

Egg, the topic is... Why do you always have to be right? You're annoying habit of making sense is starting to bother me. The English word conspiracy comes to us from Latin via French. Con means with.... spiracy comes from Latin meaning to breathe, i.e. Spirit was the unseen breath of God and Inspiration was the in breathing of God into the writers of the Bible. So we need to breathe together, if we are not breathing together, then we don't have a conspiracy.

Breathe in.

You think Tywin respected Cersei and Jaime? He had to know Cersei was a conniving, manipulative, ambitious uh, err, woman. Jaime was rash beyond rash and was particularly easy to manipulate... except for Tywin. Either Tywin had a huge blind spot for the twins or I think he kept tabs on them. I personally think he kept tabs on Cersei.

Breath out.

I think the spy who ratted out Jaime and Cersei would have feared for his life. Lord Tywin might have killed him for just brining the news and most certainly would have killed the spy just to cover it up... If this news had come out while Robert was living, then Tywin would have had to have killed Cersei, Jaime, Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella with his own hands if he had any hope of not joining the Reynes and Tarbecks.

Breathe in.

If Tywin failed to kill the spy, then both Cersei and Jaime would have sought out the informer on their own for pure vengeance.

Breathe out.

It seems to me that Pycelle (bought and owned by the Lannisters) knew about Cersei and Jaime. Yet he never said a word. I think he knew he'd never get rewarded for that information.

Breathe in.

I also think Varys and Littlefinger knew, but they kept that information to themselves for their own ends. Perhaps one or both still has concrete evidence of some sort that could topple Tommen from the throne... that is if Cersei does not accomplish this herself.

Breathe out.