Names in the Hidden Stars

[Marky Lazer]

I just have to say that I'm thoroughly enjoying the Hidden Stars, the only thing that is bugging me is the unpronouncable names of most anything. Even with the pronounciation list on your website, I found some a bit too much. Anyway, why did you opt for this hard (and sometimes long) names?

[Lissa]

I have to agree with Marky. The names are a bit much to swallow. Now that I know you have a pronunciation list on your site though i will have to check it out and finish the book.

[Marky Lazer]

Here it is: http://thehiddenstars.com/mh-pronunciation.htm

[Lissa]

many thanks

[Teresa Edgerton]

The name that most people have the most trouble with -- Éireamhóine -- is not even one I invented, it's old Irish (though I did add an "e" at the end). I did think long and hard about whether I should change that one -- but what can I say? -- it just seemed to me that it really was his name. (All along, I halfway expected my editor to ask me to change it, but she never did.)

As a reader, I like characters that have names that seem consistent with their language and their culture, and over the years and books I've tried different approaches to achieve that goal.

In my first three books, the Green Lion books, the characters all had Celtic names. The trilogy was set in an imaginary extension of the British Isles, an island kingdom a little to the west of Ireland, so Welsh and Irish names only seemed appropriate. And some people did complain because the names were too hard, as though I ought to anglicize them, which I thought rather strange because they surely never would have done so had the story been set in a pseudo-Asian setting or an imaginary kingdom in the Middle East. At least I've never heard anyone suggest such a thing, and I really couldn't see why white-skinned characters couldn't get away with exotic multi-syllabic names too.

With my next set of books, the setting was similar to Europe and America in the 18th century, so that time easier and more familiar names seemed altogether appropriate. I'm still getting fan mail from people who love those books but -- I hate to introduce the commercial note, but facts are facts -- the books didn't do well enough at the time for my publisher to want more on the same lines, so I found myself under contract writing a series of direct sequels to the first trilogy instead.

With the second set of Celydonn books -- and a substantially new cast of characters -- I quickly ran out of even vaguely pronounceable Welsh and Irish names (or at least names that weren't already associated with famous characters), so I started throwing in Breton names and some of the more fanciful names of little known characters from the Arthurian mythos.

By the time I got around to writing the notorious "Queen's Necklace" I decided to be clever, giving the main characters names that were somewhat exotic but which reduced to familiar nicknames (Will and Lili), while most of the other characters had easy names like Luke, Sophie, Jarred, Rodaric, etc. And the book sold so poorly (yes, I'm still bitter, because I still think it was a wonderful story with wonderful characters) that it just about killed my career, and I was reduced to slinking about under cover of a pseudonym myself and imposing on the credulity of innocent booksellers.

After all this, I came to the conclusion that even though people like to complain (I like to complain when other writers use names that I think are ugly, or that seem inconsistent, or much too modern, or ... well, for a lot of different reasons, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying their books) generally speaking characters' names rarely impact the reader's experience of a book all that much. But they do matter, a great deal, to me as the writer -- I can't even write a character until I find a name that feels right to me. Besides, there is no way to come up with names that will please everybody, so why not go with the sure thing and please myself -- particularly as I'm the one who is going to have to live with them for months and years at a time?

And when I started writing "The Hidden Stars" I considered many, many different methods of coming up with appropriate names for people and places. I literally spent months poring through What-to-Name-Your-Baby books, maps, foreign-language dictionaries, mythology, ancient history -- at this point, I don't even remember all the different sources I used. And nothing felt right and nothing made sense until I decided to start experimenting with an invented language. Then I spent about a year constructing that language and putting together the elements to create lists of names. Even after I had done all that, and had names for most of my cast of characters, I still found the need for some "dialect" names, which sent me back to some of my original sources.

It was a lot of work -- an enormous amount of work -- and whether it was worth all that trouble I still don't know. Predictably, some readers have trouble with the names -- but then there are other readers who say that the names actually enhance the story for them. It may be years before the votes are all in and I can finally say for certain whether I made a wise choice or a huge mistake in doing things the way that I did.

(Still, the truth is, I was absolutely stalled and unable to proceed further until I decided to go with the invented language approach -- so there is a good chance that without these particular names the book might never have been written at all.

Many of you who will read this explanation write stories yourselves, and I am sure that you know that sometimes the creative process is ... mysterious, to say the very least.)

[Brown Rat]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

The name that most people have the most trouble with -- Éireamhóine -- is not even one I invented . . .

When I read a book with complicated names, I don't worry about how to pronounce the names (unless one character explains to another how a name should be pronounced). I don't even try to guess, and I usually ignore any accompanying pronunciation guide. I just boil the name down to whatever seems easiest for me to remember, even though I know I'm probably wrong. For example, the name Teresa mentions -- Éireamhóine -- turns into something like EAR-reem-hoyn in my head, which isn't even close to the correct pronunciation (AIR-ah-vhoyn).

I figure, what the heck. Unless I'm going to have a verbal conversation about the book (as opposed to a conversation online), no one's going to complain or test me on it. And, to be honest, I often forget characters' names when I'm done reading, even if they are easy names, so my verbal conversations tend to refer to characters (even Tolkien characters!) elliptically: "the A-woman I wish had married Aragorn, not the A-elf who did". (OK, I feel stupid doing that, but it's what I do.)

What DOES give me difficulty when I'm reading are books in which there are one or more names that look much the same on the page, especially if there are several complex names that all start with the same capital letter. To pick an example from The Hidden Stars, because we're in Madeline's thread: "Rionnagh" and "Réodan" made me stumble, mainly because I'd reduced them both to "Ree-and-two-more-syllables" in my head.

But if it takes complicated names to get the book written, so be it.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by Brown Rat

When I read a book with complicated names, I don't worry about how to pronounce the names. I don't even try to guess, and I usually ignore any accompanying pronunciation guide. I just boil the name down to whatever seems easiest for me to remember, even though I know I'm probably wrong.

I do the same thing -- which is probably why I've never entirely understood why people allow long names in books to bother them. Personally, I don't even care how other people pronounce the names of my characters. If they want to call my characters by their first initials, or devise their own nicknames for them -- or anything else they want to do, if it makes reading the book easier or more enjoyable -- I'm happy to have them do so. That's one reason why I don't really like to provide a guide to pronunciation (though I always do so on request) because I'd hate to foster the impression that people are going to be tested later -- or that if they ever met me and mispronounced one or more of the names I'd go all intense and start correcting them.

So long as people pronounce MY name correctly -- which (and this has always been a source of irritation) usually they don't -- I'm perfectly content.

I've pondered the question of whether or not it would make things better or worse if I provided a glossary that explains something about the language, and the meaning of each name. Would readers enjoy knowing, for instance, that Sindérian either means "star maiden" -- derived from sindé = maiden + ari = star -- or (scholars of Niadhélen have differing theories on the exact etymology) "bright daughter" -- from sin = daughter + erién = bright, brilliant -- and that Faolein derives from féolein = sea-lion? Or would they just feel that these were yet more burdensome facts that they are expected to remember?

[Marky Lazer]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

I've pondered the question of whether or not it would make things better or worse if I provided a glossary that explains something about the language, and the meaning of each name. Would readers enjoy knowing, for instance, that Sindérian either means "star maiden" -- derived from sindé = maiden + ari = star -- or (scholars of Niadhélen have differing theories on the exact etymology) "bright daughter" -- from sin = daughter + erién = bright, brilliant -- and that Faolein derives from féolein = sea-lion? Or would they just feel that these were yet more burdensome facts that they are expected to remember?

I guess we're going to have some books: The History of the Known World, just like Tolkien. There you can stuff all this information

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by Marky Lazer

I guess we're going to have some books: The History of the Known World, just like Tolkien. There you can stuff all this information

Mmmm, yes, that sounds good -- if the series was ever popular enough to generate a demand for that sort of thing, I could happily turn out books crammed with the history, legends, magical lore, language, etc.

Or, in true Tolkien fashion, one of my children could put it all together for me posthumously.

But the advantage of a glossary containing language and names is that curious readers could look up the elements in their own names and come up with the unpronouncable equivalents. Think how much fun that would be.

For instance, the translation of my name (I just looked this up, and was pleased to discover that it was actually rather pretty), would be Hafn Valíroshel. Brown Rat's (real) name comes out as Dhanenné Rhüi.

[Lunatic]

Wow, very interesting thread.

I have to say that I do the same thing as Brown Rat and Teresa, as far as the names are concerned. They don't really pose much of an obstacle to reading a book for me. I also don't quite understand why it holds people back from enjoying a book, but then again I don't understand why Terry Goodkind is so popular, but that's an entirely different discussion...

As for adding a glossary, it's certainly something that I would enjoy.
This brings back memories of me poring over The Silmarillion when I was younger, searching for the meanings of names.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Well, I've already got notebooks full of the material, Lunatic. All it would take would be sufficient interest by readers for me to make it available.

However, I am sure there are many other writers who could say the same. There are probably whole libraries full of imaginary histories for published and unpublished fantasy that will never see the light of day.