Football (Soccer to those across the pond)

[HardScienceFan]

not to mention other sports with ridiculous salaries of course
the top of the competitions in Scotland,England,Holland and Italy
is montonously composed of the sme clubs
surprises are few

[The Ace]

Ah yes Dave Narey, whose brilliant volley against Brazil in 1982 was dismissed as a 'Toe-poke,' by Jimmy Hill (may his piles flare up on the eve of his b*gger*ng by a rugby team).

Interestingly enough, I remember one Dundee Derby when Dundee substituted one of only two Scots on the field.

They lost 2-1 to an all-Scottish (and largely Dundonian) United.

[Culhwch]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

But I'm also desperate to see the farcical imbalance redressed. Football is just a money making exercise for the big clubs these days, and the rest of us are only here to make up the numbers. It isn't fair competition. I would support the more even distribution of prize and TV money, and would also like to see a salary cap and limited wage/transfer budgets implemented.

And it's certainly true that there's not enough democracy. Up here, the SFA runs like the old Soviet politburo. And it's clear what most people think of Blatter and UEFA...

[edit] Ah, I see Cul raised the point too. Yes, there would be a huge uproar, and due to the centralised power structures of the national and international associations, it's very difficult for run-of-the-mill clubs and supporters to have their voices heard. We can but hope...

I assume that despite poor performances, fans of the lower-rung clubs (the cannonfodder, as it were) are parochial enough to keep their club afloat - or do they get just enough of the cash the game as a whole generates to keep them running? Where does the funding come from?

It certainly doesn't seem like there is much interest from the governing bodies to bring about equality, or a competition that could be won by a team other than the three or four top clubs.

[Sephiroth]

Heh. I second the Jimmy Hill comment, Ace. Toe-poke my ehrse! If Narey was playing for Brazil, he'd never have said that!


Hmm, would the game you're referring to be about, say, five years ago, during the height of the Bonetti madness at Dens? Gods that was a laugh. We knew it wasn't sustainable, we were always just waiting for them to crash and burn, and take up their rightful place back down in the diddy league where they belong.





Cul, that's pretty much it, yeah. Speaking for my own club, the revenue we get from season ticket and matchday ticket sales, coupled with corporate hospitality packages and our share of the TV money (a larger than proportionate share of which is gobbled up unfairly by the two big clubs, Rangers and Celtic) and prize money (which is fixed to award much more money to 1st and 2nd place than the rest) is just enough to keep us afloat. We lost money for the past five or six seasons, but this year, thanks to a cup final and a more successful league run, we broke even. Barely.

But sadly, the governing bodies are in bed with the big clubs. Many of the representatives of those clubs hold high positions within FIFA, and their opinion carries inordinate weight. Or in fact, weight of opinion is determined by spending power, which perpetuates the cycle.

[pyan]

How does a city of less than 150,000 population support two football teams, anyway? Aberdeen has 200,000+, and has only the one, and the cut-off point in England seems to be about half a million...

[The Ace]

It was a Saturday in the car park with only radio tay for company, so that would've been about right.

[The Ace]

Perth has a population of only 40,000, maybe that's why we have St Johnstone. Inverness, Arbroath, Stranraer, Cowdenbeath, Dingwall (Ross County) and Methil (East Fife) are much smaller, but that doesn't prevent them fielding football teams.

Of course, Stenhousemuir are pretty close to Falkirk too.

[Sephiroth]

A good question, Pyan, and one that has been asked many times.


By rights, this city should not be able to support two senior teams (and in truth, it struggles to do so nowadays). But somehow it ended up that way. Dundee were formed in 1893 and United in 1909, originally as 'Dundee Hibernian', to appeal to the large Irish population in the city. So I suppose originally the two clubs appealed to different constituencies, and that was the justification for it. Also, in those days, as you know, there were less choices with regard to spare time, and football attendances were far higher than they are now.

By 1923, we had changed our name to United to reflect the fact that our support in fact came from all over the city, though. Ever since then, the town has been split, and talk of mergers has always been vehemently opposed on both sides. Even stadium sharing has never been a popular idea.


'Back in the day', the two clubs thrived, however. Both were regularly able to attract crowds of 20,000+ for big games. Now, it's a decent crowd if we get half that, and the other lot, well...try halving that again.

The situation is untenable, really, but we're stuck with it. I won't pretend that I haven't wished they would go out of business, since it would really benefit us in the longer term...but that goes against my principles as a football fan, even if they are the enemy. I don't like to see small clubs go to the wall...


It's a shame that a city with such a proud footballing tradition has been reduced to this, though. We're one of only half a dozen or so (I forget the exact number) cities in Europe to have had two clubs in European Cup semi-finals.

Now, even we struggle to qualify for Europe, and them, well.....LOL!

"It's magic, you know! Dundee and Europe don't go!"



[edit] But as Ace suggests, many league clubs in Scotland come from tiny places; although most of them are part-time. The newest member of the Third Division, Annan Athletic, come from a town with a population of only 4000, and their average gate is a couple of hundred at best.

[pyan]

Yes, but only the one each.

Southampton, Reading, Leicester and Leeds, for instance, all have populations of between 250,000 and 450,000, yet only have one league team.

Edit - this post just became irrelevant...

And as for Annan...remember Gretna....

[Sephiroth]

Heh.

And is Leeds that small, cor blimey! I always thought of Leeds as having well over half a million inhabitants.......


Ah, but poor Gretna. I still don't understand what happened there, except that it was embarrassing for all concerned -- but it's the community there that has had to suffer for it. Fair enough, some people disapproved of them 'buying their way up', but I feel that even with the money they had to put the right team together and they had to win the games, and so it's hard to argue that they didn't deserve their shot at the SPL.

But I wonder what happened behind the scenes with Brooks Mileson. His illness is a terrible thing, but the fact that he seemed to have no contingency plans and nobody acting as his executive is hard to fathom. It's like either he or his family became uncomfortable at the money they were losing and decided to pull the plug. Fair enough -- it's their money, their prerogative -- but the fact that it was all done in complete silence is mystifying. To this day, I wonder what went on.


The difference with Annan is that there's no Flash Harry in the boardroom waving around wads of cash. They're a good, solid non-league club with a proud tradition and a social club that rakes in over £200,000 per year over the bar! (I guess they like a drink in Annan...?), and the SFA committee, which was very keen to avoid another debacle of the Gretna kind, seems to feel that of all the applicants, theirs is the most sustainable bid.

Hopefully we'll finally be opening our leagues to a pyramid system anyway. There are non-league and junior clubs here which attract a better support than many of the second and third division clubs, and the closed system is definitely a contributary factor to the stagnation of our game.

[Tansy]

When did Tottenham start playing basketball?

[Weasel Soup]

Ok hehehe..an american here who calls it footy.

My coworker and I finally convinced the owners of the Bar and Grill we work at to open up at 6am so we can show live EPL matches. (This we result in me going home from work at 4 am going back at 5 am working til noon, going home til 6pm and working 6 to 4 am again and repeat lol)

I tend to follow the following 4 teams the most closely..(ducks for inevitable WTF?)
Man U, Ajax, Fiorentina and Partisan Belgrade (I do not have an MLS team cause the American game is largely unwatchable)

Had more fun during Euro than I thought possible and was quite happy to see Chelsea go down in Champions.

In second grade in the 1970's (so age 7 I believe) we had to do a questionaire on the first day of class. One of the questions was name 2 heroes. I wrote Rod Carew (baseball player) and Johan Cryuff. Had to explain to the teacher who Johan was.

Also a funny anecdote from my landlord and his fiance' , After watching matches all day I failed to properly navigate the stairs to my flat (a noist and hasty descent)... His Fiance' asked "should we check on him" he replied "ahhhh..he's been watching soccer all day".

[vivek]

Weasel Soup that is really great ...speaks very highly for the love you have for the game...i stay in a country where it's all cricket so am in the minority but there is something in footy that catches my fancy

[Sephiroth]

Kudos to both of you for keeping the faith in lands that just don't get the beautiful game. It must be tough.




Well, I am preparing to go and watch my team take on Barcelona for the sixth time on Saturday. I believe the friendly is on Setanta, for those of you who have that.

Last year they beat us 1-0 with a dodgy penalty (Thierry Henry), and we had a perfectly good goal chalked off. Admittedly they are at an earlier stage of their pre-season than we are, but still...


The competitive fixtures between us have been a different story, however.

United are the only British club ever to have beaten Barça home and away, and we've done it twice:

17 Nov 1966
Barcelona 1 DUNDEE UNITED 2 (Fairs Cup 1st Round, 1st Leg)

9 Mar 1967
DUNDEE UNITED 2 Barcelona 0 (Fairs Cup 1st Round, 2nd Leg)

5 Mar 1987
DUNDEE UNITED 1 Barcelona 0 (UEFA Cup Quarter-Final 1st Leg)

19 Mar 1987
Barcelona 1 DUNDEE UNITED 2 (UEFA Cup Quarter-Final 2nd Leg)



Sadly, we weren't in the Champions League in 2007, so we couldn't beat them again.

Bet they're just quaking in their boots in case they ever get us again, though.

[Wybren]

Goodluck United and have fun at the Game Seph, I hope it is a great one.

And can I say, even though it is not about football but rather about League (which we call football here)

GO SHARKS!!